One day when I was in elementary school I came home, sat in front of the tv and watched an After-School Special. It was about a shy girl who had moved into a new school and nobody wanted to be her friend until the coolest boy (the QUARTERBACK) started noticing her and asked her out. She felt so indebted to him for giving her attention that she didn't notice when their relationship started becoming abusive. They would go to big parties together for popular people and he would watch her every move. If she so much as talked to another boy, her boyfriend would hit her. There was a scene, I remember, where it showed her face--all black and blue--looking at her boyfriend begging him to stop.
I sat and watched, riveted until the end when she finally had the nerve to tell her parents the truth. I sat and watched the abuse, the cover-ups, the never-ending dramatic pseudo-apologies and thought, this is the most romantic thing I had ever seen.
To have a man care so much about you, to be so obsessed with your actions that he would watch you and hover over you, to be capable of making a man so angry or so blissful felt like a super power. I began to mentally work out how to become a shy, retiring girl so that a boy would feel like he could own me.
This was a revelation. I spent the next few years of my life pleading -prayerfully- to be more simple, to be less wild, to be more innocent and carry a reputation of weakness. But no matter how desperately I didn't want to be the girl who showed up to parties loud and animated, that girl would always come out on top. And in all my relationships, I was the one who had the control.
After that After-School Special day I resumed growing up. I came to interpret a pressing theme inside my upbringing : I was to be a wife and mother -as soon as possible- and in order to achieve this, I was to be as sexy as possible. Without messing with my chastity.
The blueprint for my wifehood and motherhood was found in sparkling photographs of Martha Stewart enterprise. I believed a successful woman looked like ironed sheets of high-ranged thread count, painted walls in organic colors and monthly parties with themes and color schemes. To please everyone in my life, I would marry as young as possible, have babies in succession and live in the dreams of professional domestic stylists.
And yet, in order to catch a man it was imperative for my body to be as thin as possible, perky and pleasing. I needed to dress with just enough thrill to catch an eye, but not so seductively that I would forgo sleeves.
Be sexy enough to attract a man. Be good enough to keep him chaste.
So when I turned nineteen years old, I had a very clear vision of everything. And though it promised my total happiness, I was in such a dark, lonely, medicated place at nineteen years old. I promised myself my existence would be better as soon as I met the boy who would own me. He would own all of my choices and all of the consequences and I could just be obedient. I wouldn't be complete until I met him.
And so you can imagine my relief when I met that boy one day during Speech and Drama class. I walked into class wearing my requisite tight skirt (but long) and watched his eyes travel up and down my body. The relief I found in thinking I finally found my owner, the man who held my destiny. The thrill I felt when he confessed to hitting his former girlfriend with a pool stick when she said things he didn't like.
But that wild, opinionated girl--the authentic me--she wouldn't be put away. And for months and months I danced between the girl I felt molded to become and the girl who wanted to obliterate the mold, smash it, destroy it. And this impossible dance cost me just about everything I had. I felt as powerless as the shy girl in the After-School Special, except I didn't feel special, I felt rage.
Why didn't the shy girl ever show rage?
I would've broken up with him sometime after the manipulations started, but, you see, I had a very heavy, very real, pressing fear that if I didn't marry by twenty-one I'd be disappointing my entire world. Including God.
158 comments:
I totally remember that after-school special. It's amazing how skewed our beliefs can become as a child. And the worst is that they become so deep seated it's almost impossible to break through. When you figure it out, let me know the cure.
DaNelle recently posted...My Back's not bad, it just has a really weird sense of humor.
This breaks my heart that you felt that way.
Reading this made me so sad that you thought that way! My heart broke a little for you.
This was a really hard post for me to read. Honestly, all I could think was "I hope my daughters don't feel like this"...and then "I have to do everything possible to make sure my daughters NEVER feel like this".
So glad you're talking about this. The notion of "sexy modest" or "moddest is hottest" is just about the most screwed up idea to ever hit LDS circles. I've been following similar discussions on FMH and other such sites with much interest.
Blessings for sharing.
If your bravery helps just one other from making the mistake that brought you, myself and others the heartache and pain - it will be worth the risk.
Hugs,
Barbara Diane
Having been through something similar, I strongly believe that EVERY mother needs to talk to their daughters about this. Emotional abuse is something that is just NOT discussed in a lot of circles and it's really easy to fall into the pattern without recognizing it as abuse.
Thank you for sharing such a hard and personal history.
How sad that at such a young age your perception was so skewed. And that it carried on for so long.
Thanks for being willing to share, so I can be reminded to watch out for my daughter and other young girls.
Oh how I have seen so many suboptimal yet eternal marriages because of this line of thinking. I try to teach my daughters its better to be alone and treat yourself well than with someone who treats you poorly. I am glad I found a kind man to be my companion even though the "list" of qualities that I had wrote out in young women's: return missionary, can take me to temple, etc. were not checked off. He was not a member at the time, but he was kind, loyal, and he treated me like a queen. AND he still does.
Please let me teach my daughters to love themselves...
Because I am sure that was a goal of your mother's as well but sometimes life and thoughts of self beat the truth out of us.
Holy crap. My first thought is, "How do I make sure my daughter never feels this way? HOW?"
This story scares me .
I am so proud of you for sharing this. The broken parts of ourselves are the hardest to talk about, and I think talking about this experience and the worldview that led to it ... it shows you to be an exceptionally brave woman. So, so proud of you.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing this! Even though it's painful and difficult to read and heartbreaking, please continue doing what you're doing.
I don't understand how you grew up in the church and thought this way.
My Young Women's lessons on marriage were full of advice to marry a respectful man. I even remember hearing in a CES fireside that it is better to be single and happy than married and miserable. And I had the expectation from my parents and Young Women's leaders that college was just the natural thing to do, and training for a career was important, even if you chose to be a stay at home mother later.
I do however think that the very types of messages adults think they are giving teenagers turn into something very different in their developing minds. I had several friends try "huffing" because they heard about it in D.A.R.E and thought it sounded like a great idea.
I also remember watching a special on Anorexia and thinking how cool it would be to be that thin and get that much attention.
Thank you CJane, for again finding the courage to peel back the bandages and show us how much damage some of these warped CULTURAL ideas (not doctrinal) do. Yes, they make us cringe to look at, but we must. I was married on my 21st birthday. It is a "suboptimal yet eternal marriage" (Janie) If ever you doubt that the written word has power, there it is.
It is interesting how hormones can manipulate our vision of who we want to be. You can't change who God meant you to be. Glad you finally realized that.
Wow, I just don't know where you are coming from here. I grew up in Mormon land but I just didn't get this kind of viewpoint. Is it because my Grandma went on a mission and married a man younger than herself? Is it because all the women in my family went to college generations back? What protected me from this? Are my daughters automatically exempt because I was? Yikes, girl! This is scary!!!
I may not always agree with what you write, but I appreciate your honesty and love the way you write. I too grew up in the church, but always appreciated bucking the trend. I married at 24 and after 7 years of marriage we are having our first child. I am glad there is not one way to be righteous or just one path to get there.
I have to admit to being unaware of these cultural influences that led a number of young women to have these conceptions, at least to this extreme. I grew up in the heart of Mormon-ville and while I wanted to get married young and felt like I'd fit in better if I did, I never felt this kind of pressure (I didn't marry young and still don't quite "fit" the "mold"). I'd love to hear thoughts on how we can educate our daughters so they won't have this perception. At all. I'm truly glad you can talk about these things and wake up many of us to what can happen when teaching and example are not done correctly.
Iunderstand that feeling.. most the women around me married at nineteen and it wasnt always for.the best. Though i definitely struggled with self esteem issues i never believed that god expected me to marry for the sake of getting married. I always felt he expected me to be wise and discerning. In fact i was motivated not to get married at nineteen. It didnt feel right to me. So i got married at the ripe old age of 23 after graduating from college to the best person i know
But trust me i dated jerks along the way. Im just so thankful i wised up and knew that heavenly father loved me and wanted my happiness more than he wanted me to marry purely to start making babies and doing my duty. That part came but it came from a happy healthy desire. Sometimes that time can come for nineteen year olds and be healthy but it wouldnt have been for me
Iunderstand that feeling.. most the women around me married at nineteen and it wasnt always for.the best. Though i definitely struggled with self esteem issues i never believed that god expected me to marry for the sake of getting married. I always felt he expected me to be wise and discerning. In fact i was motivated not to get married at nineteen. It didnt feel right to me. So i got married at the ripe old age of 23 after graduating from college to the best person i know
But trust me i dated jerks along the way. Im just so thankful i wised up and knew that heavenly father loved me and wanted my happiness more than he wanted me to marry purely to start making babies and doing my duty. That part came but it came from a happy healthy desire. Sometimes that time can come for nineteen year olds and be healthy but it wouldnt have been for me
I love that you share these parts of yourself. Thank you.
Thank you very much for sharing this. It can't be easy but I think it is the right thing to do.
That you survived this and can write about it now (in spite of the threats) is brave and telling! Bless you for your honesty and bless anyone else who has gone through such tragic things!
Love to you C. Jane Kendrick!
I can relate to the part of us that sometimes longs for and glamorizes the unhealthy--like an eating disorder, or even a jealous boyfriend (not abusive though...I definitely knew I didn't want that).
But did you really think that God would be mad at you, or disappointed if you didn't marry young? Being a life long Morm myself, I'm having a hard time getting where that came from? Yes I get there are cultural pressures, etc. but actual anger, disappointment from God? I've very curious to know if that came from your family, your ward, or just something you took out of context? And I have to say, even with the cultural pressures placed on marriage, I still didn't feel all that much pressure...
It's good to have some C.Jane in my reader again.
the "shy girl" sounds like your sister Stephanie, aside from the abuse.
This is just heartbreaking. Hard to read.
Stories like this need to be told. Thank you for being brave enough to do so. I've missed your posts.
Thanks for your kind feedback! I went through about twenty different posts to tell this story. Finally I woke up this morning and felt like it was a good day to write.
I don't think I am at a point in my life where I feel comfortable relating where these thoughts came from, though I do know how I got to this point. Maybe someday that side of brave will show itself.
Until then, I teach my son and daughters what I have come to know about my Heavenly Parents--their love is so liberal.
oh courtney you have such a powerful force. nothing could keep you from being you. us attention seekers will never be ignored. the good thing about family and God is that no matter what we do they will always be there to help manage the wreckage. took me forever to realize that. keep on rockin in the free world girl!!
Your insight and self-awareness are remarkable. So many of us go through life somewhat unconsciously, not facing things, not questioning things, not turning the hot spotlight inward. You are so honest, and such a beautiful writer.
I wonder if you were (and are) attracted to intensity? When depressed, or confused, or ambivalent, sometimes we will make choices just to feel like something is happening in our lives, to feel special, to feel alive, to get on a train to "somewhere" (even if the train takes us far from where we need to be).
Just one more thing.I wrote this about what I was thinking when I was 19. 1996. Sixteen years ago. Please, please, please, take that into consideration before you start hoping for my soul. Because I grow up. It's called progression. Hallelujah!
In my experience, I feel like a lot of the pressures to get married young in Utah Valley are self-imposed and derived from comparing oneself to peers and the hyper-dating culture. I didn't move there until I went to BYU, but it was a big change from growing up in downtown Salt Lake.
However, I never felt like I had to be anything other than myself to get a guy to like me. I did spend an occasional moment feeling sorry for myself that I didn't have boys flocking to me like roommates I had, but not enough to really care or change who I was just to get the same kind of attention.
I agree with you on the "sexy modest" concept. Mormon culture can go a little overboard on dressing sexily (within 'modest' limits) and it's not just girls in their teens and 20s - it's moms who are 30s, 40s, 50s who are married but still are stuck in the mindset. Since they're married and don't need to "attract" anyone, who knows if they are doing it for themselves, to show up other women, their husbands or just people in general?
@Unknown, I think I was attracted to intensity but not because I was bored, but because it's what I knew. The men most intimate in my life were intense. I felt comfortable around intense men and uncomfortable around laid back men.
At 19 I couldn't think of anything worse than marrying someone nice. My friends would say, I just want to marry someone nice and I'd think, that's so boring. I'd die.
p.s. that was also my "pre-19" and "pre-2004" state of mind... though it hasn't changed much.
So glad you decided to post this. I think your story may help a lot of women in similar situations.
Crap, you made me cry, and understand people I've never understood before. I was just trying to browse the blogs, I wasn't prepared for all that.
I tried to be something I wasn't as well - not in the same way, but there was a boy that I wanted, needed, loved, felt so strongly about that looking back on all my relationships I was a completely different person with him. We were the two that everyone waited years to "get together already." And when we did, it was a disaster of two people loving too hard, and being too young, and too scared to destroy the pedestals we'd put one another on. I married my right guy and I can be completely authentic with him, but I will always wonder about that boy. I was terrified, and I tried so hard to fit a mold. What I will always wonder is what it could have been if I'd just been myself. And I regret the spiral it sent me on when it fell apart and I was too close to the situation to understand it.
We lost each other, but I damn sure learned to speak up and be myself in the process.
I'm confused about why you want to continue raising your daughters in this culture when you had such a horrifying experience in it.
Do you ever feel like it is hard to seperate 19 yr old Courtney from grown up Courtney? Especially given that you live in the town where you grew up? Mercifully, my past is seperated by geography, but when I visit it all rushes back on me.
I am not Mormon but I have a question about sealed marriages and divorce. If people are sealed in marriage and the marriage does not work, what happens in eternity? Does the the church have an annulment procedure similar to the Catholic church that renounces the marriage?
I second Jill F. I was wild and not in the good way but I have put some many miles between my past and myself. I was in an abusive relationship during my teen years and that's my son's biological father...so it's shocking to me that others might have seen his controlling behavior as romantic. But now looking back some of my friends did say those things, about how he must love me because of the way he controlled me. I wish I was the loud girl and not the shy quiet one.
it makes me sad that your faith/community/geographic location puts such stress on you and the need to marry young and make babies. while it is a wonderful thing - i am a mom of 2 kids i wouldn't exactly advocate being a young mom. it is nice to experience life, travel, dating and growing your own personality before having the kiddies.
growing up mormon seems like a fairytale kind of life - falling in love with your one special man, lots of babies and a perfect house with perfect sheets and wonderful parties. my house is messy, kids are loved and husband and i disagree a lot, we're not mormon and not perfect but that is ok.
This is why I'm so against Twilight- abusive male possesiveness portrayed as romantic. I'm sad for that girl who felt these things, but so happy you arrived where you are. I benefit from your blog, from the person you've become.
Courtney, very interesting post. I hadn't thought I'd comment until I read the comment about "your neighborhood." I don't believe it's fair to judge the neighborhood. I grew up in that same neighborhood about two blooks from your home (same ward even), although a generation earlier, and never did I feel that I had to marry young or give over control to a man, or have babies to be accepted by God. I wanted a family, of course, but I went to college with the purpose of getting a degree. I graduated, taught high school, and moved away before I married. I finally met my mate at work. He was not a Mormon. I taught him about the the Church and because his spirit was ready, he accepted the gospel. We have been happily married for 31 years. We have three children who married young. I didn't discourage it, because I didn't want them to experience the loneliness that I felt in my 20s. However, I don't believe a single one of them would tell you they felt they HAD to marry to be acceptable.
Feelings like these are so personal that they don't grow out of wards and neighborhoods. They grow in the spirits of young people individually who are questioning themselves and they grow and somehow don't get the right answers. I'm proud of you for sharing so that young mothers today can watch and be careful that they do answer those feelings in their daughters. I appreciate that you don't blame the church for your growing pains. Thanks for your writing.
I can understand part of this.
I have been in an ugly place with God where I felt like if I was perfect He would reward me with a husband and because I was single (and not wanting to me) I was being punished for something I had done.
How messed up. All the time it was the adversary. Our loving God doesn't punish us by withholding blessings (such as a happy marriage) and he also doesn't reward obedience with blessings all the time. All I know is that He is a God of mystery and His ways are not our ways. Conflicting? Confusing? Yes. Beautiful? Yes.
I trust that God knows my heart, my desires and the best timeline for me. I would never have been so successful in my career had I married when I wanted to, at age 20. I would of never learned the many valuable lessons I have had I married young.
I will say that being a convert to the LDS faith at 19 affected me in this dept. I had always wanted to be a wife and mom beforehand but when I joined my singles ward it was amplified. I sometimes dream about where my self esteem would be if I hadn't traveled down that road. I don't blame the LDS faith because that's not fair, but I do honestly believe the culture of the church makes it very challenging for women who are single past a certain age.
Each year I become a better version of me. I look forward to sharing that better me with my future husband.
It's so hard to share things like this. I really admire your bravery. I think you are wise for being so honest and real. I do have to wonder, how did this affect your relationship with Stephanie, if it did? She did exactly what you had wanted to do, was that strange? I'd be interested to hear about that.
It is so sad you felt that pressure from society, parents, our culture to marry that young. My parents always told us if we were younger than 21, they would not pay for our wedding:-). I think I will use that same tactic. I look forward to reading more.
It's terrible that you felt this way. Marriage was the furthest thing from my mind until I met the right guy at 22. And even that feels young.
Growing up LDS on the east coast, I always felt marriage was shoved down my throat. All our YW lessons were on the importance of marrying in the temple. HELLO?! There weren't any LDS temples in Maine, let alone any LDS boys in my high school (except my brother). Why can't lessons be more about growing as a PERSON and not just as a future-wife?
Regardless of how hard the experiences were, at least you've learned so much and are willing to share with others who might need a wake up call.
Oh thank you for writing this. Your honesty always takes my breath away. Though I didn't want to marry young, I definitely grew up thinking my worth was centered around being someone's wife. My YW leaders were wonderful women, but the lessons always went back to being worthy of a priesthood holder and being a mother. Both wonderful things, but I had to teach myself (after I got married) that my worth was independent of those things. Teenage girls need to feel empowered and in control of their happiness. Those things compliment you, they don't complete you. You're already complete. I wish that would have been drilled into my head.
This reminds me of something I read not too long ago that painted a vivid picture for me: "If I am not emotionally sitting on someone else's lap, it doesn't mean we're not getting along."
CJane--I could have written this word for word. And I didn't grow up in Utah. I grew up in Nebraska and Montana. I also was in an abusive relationship when I was 19...
Now I am 39, single, and even though I have a successful career, I struggle daily with feelings that I've completely disappointed God by not being "enough" for boys to view me as marriageable.
And I know my parents love me, but now that all my other siblings are done procreating, my mom is sad that she won't have any more grandbabies...even she's given up hope that I'll ever marry. I have to not think about it too much or the feelings of utter failure just consume me.
Thanks for being brave to continuing to share your story. I don't have nearly the readers you do, but I'll continue to share mine. Solidarity, sister.
I wonder about these kinds of things. The Mormon (sometimes North American) culture can be so destructive. Yet some people, like maybe your sister Nie Nie (?)(just an observation through the blog world) seem to thrive in it. You seem to be much different than Nie Nie, do you two get along well with such different ideologies?
You have got some courage sister! I admire your bravery and this was beautiful writing. I'm a little upset with some comments asking 'How did you ever think this because I never did' or 'Where did you get these ideas' It doesn't matter how or where. What's important is that these were your true thoughts and feelings at the time and they need no explanation to anyone.
I neverunderstood your sister Stephanie, now I feel like maybe I do. Before knowing anything about the Mormon culture, hers was the first blog I read. I thought she was special, a unique woman breaking a mold of modern feminism. I now see that she was a product of Mormon culture, apparently unique to Provo Utah?
I find this practice of minimizing a woman's worth to just marrying material and baby making so very sad, especially when the practice makes a young, naive woman vulnerable to abuse. Ugh. It is everything I don't want for my daughter. No one should marry at 19 or 21. I hope you can forgive yourself and break the cultural mold with your own children. I hope you can forgive those who put pressure on you which lead to such a stupid decision, and that you can stomach those around you that continue to sell the obedient, sexily modest way of portraying their femininity. A woman is so much more than sexy and fertile.
Kristin, well said.
I grew up every bit as Mormon as Cjane and not ONCE did I ever get the message that all I was good for was marriage and baby making. I was encouraged to get an education, work, travel and become the very best ME I could and if the right person who treated me right cam along fit marriage into my life. This is Cjanes experience NOT the Mormon way.
I'm sure this was really tough to write, but I'm glad you did. Although not everyone has experienced life in the exact same way as you have, many of our experiences are similar in some ways. I'm glad you have the courage to write about this. It is very important.
Cheryl. I read what you said and I hear you. Reading back through C. Jane's entry it is more about her upbringing in HER family. I shouldn't make the generalization. For some reason I keep reading it as an implied Mormon experience.
Wow, CJane. These stories need so badly to be shared. They are so scary, so risky, but so needed. You are making a difference in this world. Thank you for being brave enough to share your hard experiences. Even when they make us uncomfortable, we need to read them. You are one amazing woman and I hope to meet you someday.
Cheryl,
What's interesting is I don't remember getting these messages in my yw either. It wasn't until I got married and joined a married ward (not in Utah) that I received the message that there was only one way to live as a married woman. A few months ago, I was talking to my mom (she was the yw pres. when I was a laurel), and she mentioned that she intentionally excluded some of the lesson materials.
It's really interesting to go back and read the yw lessons (they are the same), the messages about getting married and having babies are definitely in there.
Your honesty is inspiring. I truly admire your honesty and I often wish I could be like you and be honest. Looking forward to more posts Cjane! love from Japan
Truth to power.
I think more young women would identify with you than anyone would want to admit. Thank you for sharing your story. You're helping us all re-evaluate how our girls need to be raised.
Um, Cheryl...
It is so easy to be turned about without realizing that it has happened to us. There are three areas where members of the Church, influenced by social and political unrest, are being caught up and led away. I chose these three because they have made major invasions into the membership of the Church. In each, the temptation is for us to turn about and face the wrong way, and it is hard to resist, for doing it seems so reasonable and right.
The dangers I speak of come from the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement (both of which are relatively new), and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals. Our local leaders must deal with all three of them with ever-increasing frequency. In each case, the members who are hurting have the conviction that the Church somehow is doing something wrong to members or that the Church is not doing enough for them.
-Apostle Boyd K. Packer (the current leader of your church )
Some mothers must work out of the home. There is no other way. And in this they are justified and for this they should not be criticized. We cannot, however, because of their discomfort over their plight, abandon a position that has been taught by the prophets from the beginning of this dispensation. The question then is, "How can we give solace to those who are justified without giving license to those who are not?"
The comfort they need is better, for the most part, administered individually. To point out so-called success stories inferring that a career out of the home has no negative effect on a family is an invitation to many to stray from what has been taught by the prophets and thus cause members to reap disappointment by and by.
-Apostle Boyd K. Packer
Like other commenters have said, I think this is Courtney's unique experience, and while it is tragic, this is not the way Mormon women are raised or indoctrinated. Yes, I married young (at 19). Yes, I have lots of children (expecting my fifth before my thirtieth birthday). But I have a graduate degree and I teach at a Big 10 school, and I have NEVER EVER felt pressure from my family or my church leaders to marry young or have babies very quickly. Both of those were things that I decided on my own, and sometimes against the advice of those who were older and wiser than me! It's just what I felt was right at that point in time. I never planned to marry young (the reverse was the case!), but when I met my husband, I had dated so much that I knew he was the one. And when we'd been married for a few years, we both felt like we'd like to start a family. Our children are our greatest joy; it has been a blessing that we have been able to have so many while we are still young enough to keep up with them. :-)
I teach the 16 & 17 year old girls in our local congregation. When I was asked to do this, it was made very clear that our local leaders wanted to emphasize that the girls should be focusing on their education and personal growth; there was some concern that some of the girls weren't looking past high school and an early marriage.
The next quotation is from a woman who is hurting, and perhaps wonders if anyone but the feminists care about her problems:
"I'm upset that I was always advised to go back and try harder only to get abused more. I need some comfort, I need solace, need hope, need to know Heavenly Father sees all that I have endured. What hope do I have for a chance to live with Heavenly Father? If temple marriage is the key to the celestial [kingdom], where am I? Outside gnashing my teeth for eternity? Help me."
"God gave unto them commandments, after having made known to them the plan of redemption." There are many things that cannot be understood nor taught nor explained unless it is in terms of the plan of redemption. The three areas that I mentioned are among them. Unless they understand the basic plan -- the premortal existence, the purposes of life, the fall, the atonement, the resurrection -- unless they understand that, the unmarried, the abused, the handicapped, the abandoned, the addicted, the disappointed, those with gender disorientation, or the intellectuals will find no enduring comfort. They can't think life is fair unless they know the plan of redemption.
The woman pleading for help needs to see the eternal nature of things and to know that her trials -- however hard to bear -- in the eternal scheme of things may be compared to a very, very bad experience in the second semester of the first grade. She will find no enduring peace in the feminist movement. There she will have no hope . If she knows the plan of redemption, she can be filled with hope.
-Apostle Boyd K. Packer
@Grace--Boyd K. Packer is not the president of the church; that position is held by Thomas S. Monson.
I totally loved this! I can totally understand that desperation of being 19 and feeling like you need to get married asap. I'm 20 and the pressure can sometimes be excruciating! Thank you so much for posting, it's just what I needed :)
You're right Rach, I'll let wiki clarify:
The President of the Quorum of the Twelve is the most senior Apostle in the church, aside from the President of the Church. When the President of the Church dies, it is the President of the Quorum of the Twelve who becomes the new Church President. The calling of President of the Twelve has been held by 25 men, 15 of whom have gone on to become President of the Church. The current President of the Quorum of the Twelve is Boyd K. Packer.
<3
Grace our belief in Gods plan is that family is the most important aspect of life. That does include marriage and children absolutely! But go ahead an read Gordon B Hinckley or Jeffrey R Holland about women and education. This is probably more about the home I was raised in and that I wasn't raised in Utah county than about anything else. Just know that not all Mormons indoctrinate these ideas into their daughters. My daughter is already being taught that who she is as a kind, smart person is most important and she certainly will see that while marriage is extremely important to us her mother isn't dependent on her fathe for her self worth.
Found a some of these comments surprising/disturbing. I have an opinion, but I don't think it needs to be expressed. I don't even think some of these people realized they are being hurtful. I am not sure if you read your comments, if you do read them, how? I am impressed you are able to allow yourself to be so vulnerable.
I was raised with intense men as well, in fact I married one. But there are miles between intense and abusive. I well remember both my mom and dad talking to us about how love does not involve abuse. Ever. It's so important to have those conversations early and often.
Ironically, my parents were both feminists and that's what protected me. It's inconceivable to me that a religious leader would blame feminists and the gay rights movement when there is so much real evil in the world.
I don't believe I have ever commented before, but yet I filled compelled to. I am always shocked and amazed at the comments of others at times when a person has shared a vulnerable story, but maybe I shouldn't be. I admire you for telling the story because if there is one person who it touched or reached in a positive way then it was worth it. Honestly, I didn't think your story was expressing "THE Mormon Experience" just an experience. I am confident that there are women out there today that sat in Young Women meetings and received the same message as you and those that sat and received the exact opposite. This often happens when humans teach. We are imperfect. When I was growing up in the 80's the Young Women lesson messages were very much about home and family but that isn't to say they were negative messages. Success has come for you because you have had growth and even more important you now understand your worth in Heavenly Father's eyes. How awesome and wonderful is that? That is all that matters! Chin up, good work!
What a moving, heart-felt story. You are so brave to share. You have been absent here a lot lately; it's no wonder. With posts like this your energy must be zapped.
Your daughters are so blessed to have a mother who is honest and wise. You are special and your writing is a true gift from above. Thank you for letting us share your trials as well as you joy and laughter.
It is interesting how this is a common feeling amongst women. Look at the success of Twilight and even that trashy novel, Fifty Shades of Grey (haven't read but from what I have heard it's pretty messed up).
Thanks for sharing this.
I completely understand that this is your story & your feelings and no matter what happened or didn't happen to make you feel that way, your feeling are still legitimate, real feelings.
However, what concerns me is that when you speak (write) people listen. What you say means something to people and I'm concerned that the message this post delivers is something other than what is the intention of the church & leaders within the church.
Like I said, I believe that your feelings are and were real and you may have had experiences to make you feel that way but I don't think that's the way the majority of young women in the church feel. And it is certainly not the intention of the church to make young women feel that way.
I hope that you go into more detail about how this was your personal story & experience and that it isn't necessarily that way for every young Mormon girl.
This whole post is quite perplexing to me on so many different levels. I am sorry that you had so much pain as a young girl and hope your life is happier now. Becca
I remember those same thrilling and terrifying feelings---wanting to be someone's possession, because that means you matter....but at the same time, rebelling against the thought that you are anything but your own. It's scary that some of us had/have those feelings as girls/women.
I wish people didn't feel the need to shelter the church from any sort of criticism here. It almost makes it seem creepier. I don't see Courtney placing any particular blame in this post. She isn't raging against anyone, or calling the church out on the carpet. She is merely sharing her experience. She is a product of so many factors, just as we all are. Perhaps it's a tragic cocktail of a confluence of factors that is triggered in some people.
And, it doesn't matter if you were raised in the middle of the Mormon heartland and didn't feel this way....it's her story.
I love your testimony of the love of our Heavenly Parents. Thanks!
Telling our complex stories will only bring more truth and beauty to light. I'm glad you're you.
C.Jane, No matter what you write I always find it interesting, touching, inspiring, thought provoking, etc. I love how you write, and let us into your brain and very personal thoughts and memories, thank you for sharing.
You know, I think it is great that a woman, who happened to be Mormon, shared a story that is important to her life and development. I think it is SAD though that so many people want to pigeon hole every single woman in this church as the same, same family, same experience, same thoughts, etc.
It is sad too that we are arguing over it. This really happened to her. It doesn't happen to everybody.
All Mormon's are not THE SAME. Our experiences are not THE SAME. Our thoughts are not THE SAME.
That is all.
Thank you, CJane. Your story is meaningful and we are listening. I admire your courage and bravery to share with us... this is tough stuff. Good for you for also being strong enough and willing to allow comments from your readers. Some of these comments have me shaking my head in disbelief, but I know that you have the sensibility to ignore those that should be ignored.
I don't understand why all of these ladies are getting so defensive and concerned that this particular experience of CJane's is going to "taint" the public's view of Mormonism? It actually comes across as a lot of insecurity within those particular ladies (many of this type who I know in real life) who want to hurry and say, "But this didn't happen to me." "But this isn't the Mormon way." It comes across to me (someone who had a similar LDS experience to CJane's at age 19)that a lot of women are trying to "cover up" or won't face up to the fact that maybe the message of young marriage and lots of babies HAS been pushed on young women in the church (even though we don't like it). It seems like these ladies don't like the message, so they want to deny its existence. Saying it didn't happen to you is great, but it is not going to go very far because the large majority of us raised in the church in the 80's and 90's... it happened to us!
At the end of the day, this is CJane's experience. I think it is really unfair for anyone to put any pressure on CJane to require disclaimers after each of her posts ***This is just one Mormon having this experience and this doesn't globalize to the experience of all Mormons.*** That pretty much goes unsaid. Don't get nervous for Mormonism because we finally have an honest Mormon willing to share her REAL story.
I really do wish that some people would stop trying to silence CJane and minimize her experiences, just because THEY didn't have that experience growing up LDS. I really wish some people wouldn't comment to ask her not to share her experiences because they might show the church in a bad light. Come on people, be realistic. Within every belief system there will be a wealth of experiences, positive and negative, and it's not up to people to try to block out the negative ones just because it "doesn't look good". This is CJane's story; she doesn't claim to write on behalf of all Mormons. I think some people need to remember that.
This was beautiful and honest and damn good writing at that. Thanks for sharing. Your experiences and the way you tell your story just touched someone on the other side of the world. Please remember that when all hell breaks loose in the comments. Take care, o talented one. And see you on Instagram! Love/A.
Thankyou for sharing these sensitive insights into your life. When you write posts like this I imagine you like a tight-rope walker, bravely stepping out onto the rope with your balance pole. It must take quite some focus and courage to take that step.
sad post. hope you are happy and enlightened now.
a) you're writing is really lovely sometimes Courtney. (I love this line: I believed a successful woman looked like ironed sheets of high-ranged thread count)
b) I'm so glad you tell these stories because I think they are so important. I relate to so often to these weird thoughts you had. I had similar thoughts in so many ways.
c) Who are all these people who think they have to somehow be defenders of the church & the culture? That always strikes me as so creepy. You are just explaining your life. I think them jumping on the bandwagon of defense makes the church and culture look creepier than anything you could possibly say about YOUR personal experience. And by the way, an experience that many of the rest of us relate to!
I like what Shelley said, "Feelings like these are so personal that they don't grow out of wards and neighborhoods. They grow in the spirits of young people individually who are questioning themselves and they grow and somehow don't get the right answers." Reading CJane's posts it's easy to lump it as a shared "Mormon" experience. This is an individual experience and she's letting us know what "she believed back then". My experience with love and marriage was vastly different. Never would I have thought it was even a little ok for a boy to push me around. I always thought if a boy hit me I'd punch him in the "you know whats" so fast that he wouldn't now what was coming. But that's me and my Mormon experience. THanks for sharing "your" experience CJane.
Also - after reading more of these comments, I call bull$#*% on the people saying the NEVER in all caps! felt pressure to marry young or have children young. If you didn't feel that you weren't paying attention to the lessons. I teach YW now. The lessons haven't changed. We spend roughly 2 months of lessons on marriage. 2 months of sundays for teenage girls on why it's so important for them to get married. Seriously.
CJane, thank you so much for being brave enough to bear your soul with this post. I can't imagine what it must have taken to get to the point where you could write about it.
I had a boyfriend in high school who was extremely possessive and even stalked me on occasion, with the excuse that he "just wanted to make sure I was okay." I tried to tell myself that he was just being thoughtful. Oh, how our mind will twist things. There are other men, too, that I have allowed in my life for many of the same reasons you've mentioned, and this line of reasoning is something I think many women use to make the choices they do, whether they know it or not.
Young girls, and really women of any age, are in danger of falling into this trap, regardless of their religion or neighborhood. I think society in general perpetuates these thoughts, with tactics such as those after-school specials, articles on "how to catch the perfect man" and the "romantic" Twilight series, as someone mentioned above. And don't even get me started on Fifty Shades of Gray.
I am so happy you are discussing this, although I know this must be heartbreaking for you to do so. I hope that it will touch the hearts of women and help the ones who so desperately need it. Thank you, thank you.
Wow. You are sadly so not alone. Relieved you got out and can write about it to help others, especially those of us with daughters. It is so easy for The Message to get misread! We think we are teaching clearly but obviously that isn't always the case.
I only lived in Utah to go to BYU and for a couple of years afterward, but I totally got this attitude and Love the way you expressed it:
Be sexy enough to attract a man. Be good enough to keep him chaste.
Thanks for sharing your life and lessons.
I feel so conflicted going through these comments. I don't know whether to envy those who say, "Oh my gosh! I can't believe you EVER felt this way!" or snear and wonder where the heck in la-la-land they were.
As a young, awkward teen who felt ugly and not quite adequate and who craved to feel loved by a (*gasp!*)...BOY. It was part of the growing and maturing process to feel like you were pretty enough to catch his eye- To catch ANY boy's eye. We didn't shoot for the popular guys, that was irrelevant. To have ANY human with a Y chromosome to desire to be near us was sufficient. It's part of feeling grown up. SOOO mature, etc.
I too also have a "loud" personality, and am likely the most transparent person you'd ever likely meet. And I have seen those dainty, put together, women in the church and felt the need to stifle my personality because it was irreverent and lacked grace and femininity. There's the desire to become more submissive in general, because it seems so much more attractive and beautiful to be eloquent and reserved.
I also find that a lot of this mentality and pressure to marry young is amplified in the Provo area. There is still the floating pressure that if you don't marry by 25 you're a menace to society and in-so-doing, not pleasing to God. This, of course is a CULTURAL thing. Being a previous Laurel advisor, I was always sure to teach my girls that they deserved to be treated as the Daugthers of a King that they were, as I hoped to teach them the lesson that it took me long years to understand.
Thank you for your courage and bravery in addressing the things that I feel we don't openly discuss (PARTICULARLY as members of the church) because we are afraid it makes us appear broken, and tainted (such as depression, miscarriage, marital struggles, body image, etc.). We need to be much more open and willing to talk about those types of things- we learn from sharing. And we need to know we're not alone.
Dear CJane
I wish I could be your neighbor. There is SO much I would love to talk to you about... like where these thoughts came from. My thoughts were not quite the same as yours, but just as damaging.
And the question that I struggle with daily is how do I stay here in this place with my family, but teach my children differently?
I think you have a lot to say about this. And I wish I could hear it.
Thanks for your strength.
Since there are many moms reading this post, we are obviously thinking of our own precious daughters as you write this and wondering if we are doing anything to promote this kind of thinking. I for one never felt anything like this as a girl growing up--I simply would have been horrified at a movie like that. So, I am thinking it would be really helpful and insightful for you to include some thoughts about your relationship with your mother--if you feel that you want to share that. Did you ever discuss these feelings with her? Did she know at all what you were going through? You have talked so positively about her, yet she never is given a voice in these posts. As I read this it feels like you are almost living alone. As a reader that is a layer to this story that I would love to hear about--and I think it would help all of us mothers to know that. Thanks
I am so sorry! I actually had the exact opposite problem/way of thinking. I am very naturally quiet and I always felt I wasn't good enough because I wasn't entertaining and the center of attention. Then my parents also told me that my personality sucked and no one would love me because of it...if I could only snap out of my shyness I could be loveable! That was the message anyway. After years of therapy, I have learned that I am introverted and I enjoy being that way. There is nothing wrong with it. And there is nothing wrong with being the life of the party either! People need to be the best versions of themselves and not a second rate copy of someone else to be truly happy.
You can call bull$&@@ all you want but that is my experience, my sister got married at 21 and my parents talked about how young she was and how they hoped she was making the right choice and hoped she was mature enough. The rest of us girls got married around 25 and my one sister was nearly 30. We NEVER felt te pressure. I think the home we grow up in is more influential than the culture.
Gosh, you really had the number 21 in your mind as the expiration date for a viable mormon woman? I'm so sad about that. Not in a patronizing, pitying way, but in a familiar way. I am sad for the expectations that we put on ourselves as women, all of us. In different ways. We think we have to do this and be that for God or anyone to love us. All the while God is waiting for us to love ourselves as he does and to realize our potential as these fantastic human beings and get to it. Get to it being awesome, in whatever way our souls lead us: motherhood, community service, politics, education, medicine, whatever. Mormon or not. We can know what we know and believe it's true, without becoming a typecast. (This coming from a BYU graduate, wife of a bishop and mother of five.). On the outside, I have found a very tidy life-path, but on the inside, I know I'm not very tidy or transparent. I know I am complicated and bright and talented and complex and unfinished. I am weak and judgemental and hilarious and kind. I know that I can allow God to use my uniqueness to bless lives. I'm grateful to be a wife and mother, and I'm also grateful that it is not all that defines me.
You amaze me with your honesty.
Cheryl - I think the fact that it seems remarkable that one of your sisters waited until being nearly 30 to get married says volumes about our culture.
In real life outside of mormon culture (or few other micro-cultures, most of them religious in nature) no one thinks 30 is remarkably old to get married. And most everyone one thinks 25 is super young as well. Anywhere you live outside of Utah is always worried when people get married that young.
There are real reasons why this is a part of our culture. We highly value chastity, we highly value marriage and family - all of these things contribute to it. And there is nothing wrong with those things - it's nice that we champion them. But I think we have to understand there is an underside, or a down side if you will, to some of those ideas. And many of our youth absorb those ideas. And I still call bull$%*& on saying you never felt that pressure. If you got married at 25 I warrant you did. Within mormon culture you are right, that isn't young at all. But the fact that you think that is still remarkable don't you think?
I just want to say (having never commented here) that this is NOT something the Mormon church teaches or practices...they have never said "be married by the age of 21" or anything of the sort. Marriage has high value to it in the gospel, but not in any sort of "time frame." I value your experiences, but feel it needs to be said that it was YOU that felt this way for your own reasons, not because the church taught that it was necessary.
I love reading your words. Just wanted to clarify something that those of other faiths might not understand. Having read that, a non-Mormon will probably assume that you were taught you had to be married by 21.
I never said anything about it being remarkable, i just stated facts. You inserted your own translation into my words. My experience was I never felt the pressure. Just because you think I did doesn't change my experience.
Just yesterday I was out to lunch with friends and one of them just had an experience with her daughter where she almost married someone who she knew (the mother) was showing some signs of control and abuse. After months and months of praying, hoping, setting and calling off a few wedding dates- her daughter, finally saw the light and called it off for good. The entire time I was thinking how wonderful it was that her daughter had her as a mother- and that being her daughter- and knowing that yes, in the end, it was her decision she stood by her and helped her see the 'red flags'. I love my mother- but she never did this for me- and I felt sad. There were a few times that I doubted my decision to get married- and expressed this to her-she always told me "It will be okay, everything will work out" and I wish she would have taken the time to sit down and talk it out with me- and give me some insight. yes, I realize, I may have not listened to her, but at least I could look back and see that she cared. Bottom line- we need to talk to our kids about everything!!! Even if they don't seem like they are listening, they are! And we can also share our wisdom and insights with them- and if we see something that doesn't seem right, we need to have the courage to say something, even if we feel like it is none of our business! As mothers as parents- it is our business!
I agree with Cheryl that these are Cjane's feelings and not the Mormon way.
Bandanamom - I also teach YW and have for 4 years. I don't understand the logic behind your reasoning. You are implying that by teaching the girls the sacredness of marriage and the weight of such a heavy decision while in their teens we're encouraging them to marry young. That's like saying that by teaching my son about sex at a young age I'm handing him a condom. We teach them correct principles in their youth so they have the tools necessary to make the decisions in adulthood.
Cjane - while it's great to mention you "grow up" in the comments, I wish such sentiments would have been posted in the actual post. The way the post is worded doesn't convey that message.
I was never taught "modest is hottest" or "sexy modest". I was also taught to be smart, thoughtful, and to develop my talents. I had no desire to marry young b/c I was smart and went to college on a full tuition scholarship, and I was raised in Mormonville. I did marry at a younger age b/c I met my husband and wanted to get married. My parents didn't care either way. I still got my degree and graduated with honors. Oh, and my husband has never hit me just in case people were also thinking that is the Mormon norm.
I think these are "Clark" experiences and "Courtney" interpretations and not the Mormon mainstream. I have no qualms with Courtney voicing HER opinions I just wish she'd quit housing them in a "Mormon" package.
What is sad to me Cjane, is that after you write posts like this someone invariably ends up disparaging your sister for her life choices. It's unfortunate and unfair.
I've thought the same thing. Why bring Stephanie into Courtney's life story? No two sisters are the same. I'm a triplet and my sisters and I are completly different from each other.
Good grief! I'm sorry you felt that way. It's embarrassing for me to read this because I grew up in Utah as a Mormon girl and shared none of the same misguided notions concerning the place of a Mormon woman in the world. I hope that you will distinguish between the dogma that you embraced and the actual doctrine of the church. I cringe particularly when you talk about how your righteousness was linked to how quickly you were married and had babies. Did someone actually teach this too you? It's just crazy to me.
I applaud your honesty. Sometimes sharing the dark, shameful places deep in our hearts is just what we need to be set free. You may not have broken the mold then, but you are doing it now. Thank you.
Rachael: " I think this is Courtney's unique experience, and while it is tragic, this is not the way Mormon women are raised or indoctrinated. Yes, I married young (at 19). Yes, I have lots of children (expecting my fifth before my thirtieth birthday). But I have a graduate degree and I teach at a Big 10 school, and I have NEVER EVER felt pressure from my family or my church leaders to marry young or have babies very quickly."
Oh, come on. This is one of the most disingenuous things I've ever read. Mormon girls may not be raised to desire an abusive marriage, but they are most definitely raised to marry young. Most women like you (<30, advanced degrees) are not even married before they turn 30, let alone have five children. Your Mormonism is what causes that difference.
Of course, there is nothing necessarily wrong with a woman making that choice, but I cannot believe anyone here will claim that there is not a strong cultural influence behind it. If you *honestly* don't see that, then I have to conclude that Mormon culture is apparently even more insular than it looks.
What I am saying @Kimberly, is that by so much focus on marriage and family for young girls - who get these lessons repeatedly from the age of 12 to 18, we do tell them this is one of their most important goals. It would be really cool if we would add two additional things on top of this: more than 1 lesson on schooling/education (because that's what there normally is in a manual) and ANY lessons on versions of life that don't include getting married or having children. And I say that because the reality is that many girls won't marry and some will not have kids.
If you spend the majority of your teens years (as I did) having lessons on marriage - and frankly, activities centered around weddings (which is weird...we focused a lot on wedding dresses and the like in my young women's program) - and we never talk about much of anything else - everything you can imagine or picture in regards to your future relates to that idea. I could not imagine a future that didn't involve getting married young. It never occurred to me that I should be focused on the idea of school. I was terrified that if I didn't marry by 25 I was never going to be married. I'd be totally ineligible.
It's disingenuous for commenters who are so keen to defend the church to keep saying that Courtney's experience is outside the norm. I can tell you that for nearly every mormon woman I know who grew up in the 70s, 80s and even the 90s, it's definitely the norm.
I'm astounded at the girls in my ward who I now teach who still can't goal set beyond the holy grail of marriage. Luckily, this is something that is not a problem with all the girls. But the fact that is it is still such a prevalent thought process is troublesome. And in several cases I know of - having had conversations along this line with their parents - it's something LDS parents encourage to some extent.
Quote from a mom I really like regarding her teenage daughter "I told her she needs to figure out what the heck she's going to do in college until she finds a husband". It's 2012 people, and this is still a pervasive thought.
I love your courage and honesty. I appreciate the ownership you have taken for your choices and where they put you--and wow, that makes you a powerful woman. We gain strength as individuals and ultimately as a culture when we are brave enough to own our feelings and move forward with grace. Thanks for being an inspiring example.
Yes we value marriage and teach it as a valuable, important step in life. The Proclamation on the Family states that it is ordained of God and the family is central to His plan. There is nothing wrong with marrying young if that is your choice, there is nothing wrong with marrying at any age if that is your choice or life circumstance. But I have no problem teaching YW that marriage is very important , but I also teach that who they marry will shape them in so many ways that they must choose wisely and not settle for just anyone. I also tech that education and life experience is extremely valuable and will make them a contributing member of society as well as a better wife and mother. I will not apologize for my beliefs in the importance and sanctity of marriage. But it is not the be all, end all of life.
My thoughts exactly. Why are people so quick to take sides and desperately try to determine which is "right" and which is "wrong"? There isn't a right or wrong here, just different.
I think it's completely unreasonable to ask Courtney to discuss the details of how she arrived at that place of neediness as a 19 yr old.
While there are most likely multiple factors contributing to her state-of-mind at that time, obviously family relationships/home environment would be one of those factors. She clearly loves her family and obviously they read her blog - even if they don't, everyone they know does! - so why in the world would she discuss the inner-workings/possible short-comings of her family for everyone to know? (We all have family failings of some kind or another.)
Courtney has presented herself as someone who has faced the demons of her past, and this, coupled with the love she exudes for her family, would seem to indicate that she has indeed had those difficult conversations with her parents and they have found forgiveness and are most likely learning to heal and love - just like all of the rest of us in our own families!
Isn't it enough that she has shared such intimate thoughts and memories as witnessed in this post? Are some of the readers really asking that she ostracize her family members as well? Come on . . . the girl deserves some privacy, at least.
I find it bizarre that so many women have commented that they don't think the Mormom Church encourages woman to marry young. I am not even Mormon and I can see that.
I went to many Mormon church events in high school with good Mormon friends and there are many messages that would create that thought in young girls minds. We went to a pedicure night and the women told us that if we learned how to rub our husbands feet he would stay with us forever. And signs at one event that said if you stayed pure you could take your man to the Temple. I think these aren't bad things to say but I think there should be some responsibility taken that these girls are impressionable and they are going to start to connect their worth to a man (husband).
Also, women aren't allowed to go on missions until they are 21, doesn't that send the message to girls that the church would rather they marry before then but if not then they should go on a mission as the boys go at 19.
I don't have a problem with any of this but I don't think women should say that the church doesn't teach that when clearly if you look at statistics women perceive that this is what they are being taught.
And I also don't think people should get upset at CJane because she is giving the wrong msg about Mormonism to her readers. It's her experience and her blog. Her readers are intelligent enough to see that this is not every Mormon woman's experience.
I can't believe people are trying debate the churches role in all of this when there's so much testimony out there from both members and leaders.
Online alone, there's a huge ex-Mormon movement where you'll find endless stories similar to what Courtney expressed here.
There are also countless female Mormon bloggers, still active in the church, who have shared stories similar to what Courtney expressed here.
It's unfortunate that some of the women commenting are so invested in maintaining a certain facade that they're willing to throw future generations under the bus by derailing any type of honest discourse that could result in change.
Amen!
Even more laughable than an LDS woman insisting that young marriage is not a decidedly *taught* goal in Mormon culture, is a Mormon woman who pretends that before CJane, they've never even heard of such a thing.
"You grew up as a Mormon girl believing that it was important for you to marry young and waste no time having children? Why, I've never heard of anything like this in my entire 40-something Mormon life!"
Some of you act as if this idea is totally foreign to you.
Stop it.
Courtney is an amazingly talented writer and we love reading her because she's so open. This post was beautifully written, but I'm confused by all the contradiction. Which YW leader's lesson? Was it the same one she got close to that helped her learn so much about herself who turned up later lesbian? And if I remember, when she was going to get married, those that knew and loved her tried to talk her out of it, even telling her they'd be there when it was over, not this pressure to marry young. I thought Courtney said in her LOVE posts that she married this guy out of rebellion against what she'd grown up with, not because of it.
I know I'm the minority, but I worry for my daughters that almost nowhere are they taught the value of being a wife and mother. Last year my 10 yr old had an assignment about her future and what she'd like to be and she...gasp...said "A mom" This was unacceptable and she had to re-do it. Being a mom wasn't sufficient. I won't deny the LDS church encourages marriage and teaches that it's a divine role to be a wife and mother but nowhere is it taught to marry an abusive person, just so you get married. I'm glad that there's an organization which spends time teaching both my sons & daughters about being a good spouse, mother, and father, because they're sure not being taught that other places. As my conversion deepens, I've never felt more my worth as a woman and value as a daughter of God than in the doctrine of the LDS faith. I'm an independent person-lived in a foreign country, learned a language, traveled, graduated college with a masters degree, worked full time while single, married w/no kids, then with kids. Yet, for me I feel most fulfilled and influential now as a full time mother & wife, but I also know that's not all that defines me.
Thanks for sharing. So sorry this was your experience. Glad you clarified that this is not LDS doctrine, but an accumulation of your life's experience. Happy you're in a healthy place and good relationship now.
As a non-Mormon christian I thought I would add my 2 cents to the conversation.
Did I learn the importance of marriage through my family and the church? yes.
Did my family and the church verbally say you should get married young? not that I recall
Did all of my married family get married before 23? yes
Did they expect me to get married at the same age? yes (and so did I)
Did my mother ask me every week when she called me at college if I had dated a nice boy that week? yes
Was my mother concerned when I graduated and took at great job in a different town that I knew no one in the area? yes and it was especially hard for her that I didn't have a husband to protect and emotionally support me at this time.
And yes my church culture also reinforced this notion. Did my parents pray for my future spouse since I was in single digits? yes.
Did all of this impact me? YES
I felt like an old maid at 24. I knew it was tough on my mother especially. She has a great loving relationship with my dad and wanted the same joy for me.
(BTW, I married 19 years ago at the "old" age of 26 and it was a day of great joy for me.)
From the outside I do think there a correlation between Mormonism and marrying young, (and larger families and lower divorce rates) I don't think this is a bad thing. The cautionary tale to me is about the abuse.
All of us need to think about the ways in which our culture leaves us vulnerable to feeling "less than" and deserving of abuse. Different personalities are going to react completely differently to similiar situations. Our children may have a personality/situation quite different than our own. Personally, C Jane story reminded me how careful I need to be about the messages I give my children. And that I need to pray that they (and I) will recognize how precious they are married or unmarried, in addition to praying for their future spouse.
Thank you.
Hey Morgan Lee and Grace - Just as you find it annoying that people question the experiences Cjane is writing about, it is equally annoying for you to question when commenters share their experiences. Was I taught that marriage is important? Absolutely! Was I taught that family is the most important thing in this life? Certainly. Was I TAUGHT that I was supposed to accomplish those things at as early an age as possible? Most definitely not. But that's not to say that others didn't INTERPRET those lessons that way. Please stop insisting that you know what I was taught growing up in the church. In my case at least, you're wrong.
I grew up in Orem, UT, but when I read your blog I wonder how we grew up in the same valley. My high school, junior high, and elementary experience was so dramatically different than yours. What I was taught about the same God you worship was different as well.
Reading your life experiences makes me realize how easy it can be to teach "the gospel according to so-and-so", instead of the Gospel according to Christ. I sorry you had so many people around you who weren't teaching the latter. You've made me ever aware of what I say and do so I'm not giving my daughter and the children in my ward the wrong impressions.
I find the comments in here humorous, in poor taste AND (thankfully) encouraging that there is kindness to be had among opinionated women. But I sure am glad those who are leaving condescending and negative comments regarding CJane's expereience are not and will never be MY judge.
Courtney, your openness is pioneering. Thank you!
You are a Child of GOD. That is what I am teaching my 4 daughters, and my sons too. THAT relationship and their own personal individual worth is the most important thing to me. If they are close to their Father in Heaven and if they really know their Savior, they will always feel good about themselves. They will be alright.
com·ment/ˈkäment/
Noun:
A remark expressing an opinion or reaction.
This isn't a message board.
When I leave a comment, it's only for Courtney. It's just a comment. Not trying to have a discussion. With anyone. Ever.
Go find a message board about Courtney if you don't like her or her sister. Sadly, they exist.
Shannon, I will not and have not argued that any specific individual did not have a certain experience that they claim to have. What I have argued is that 1) the expectation for people to marry young is indeed prevalent in Mormon culture (that particular families may not enforce this in their homes is great, but not the point); and 2) that I do not believe that Cjane's blog is the first that anyone here has heard of this phenomenon.
The only place that I have ever seen active LDS women deny that young marriage is a cultural expectation (not a commandment, not a requirement, but a strong and definite *expectation*) is here on CJane's blog. I know that young marriage is expected because I have been told so by many LDS people, from multiple states, but especially in Utah, and by both adults and girls (my high school students here in Utah used to mention it frequently). I could go on and on to further demonstrate this, but I doubt that's necessary.
And to be clear, I am not commenting on Cjane's specific situation. She seems to be suggesting that LDS culture was one of many factors that contributed to her making a poor choice for a spouse. I have neither defended nor denied that point of view. I have only agreed that there is generally an expectation for people to marry sooner rather than later, an expectation about which I have made no value judgement here whatsoever.
Interesting thought...I am a convert (at 18 yrs. old) and did not grow up in the church however I remember being very disappointed that my fiance (member) would not "fight" for me, when an ex-boyfriend (also member) was trying to swoon me away from him. I remember thinking: Who REALLY loves me? The one trying to force or the one sitting back letting me choose? Even though I was only 21, I am so grateful I had some sense and didn't get caught up in the false "romance" for too long - because I think in a male dominant society/world - this is a fairly easy trap to fall into for most girls who don't have parents telling them otherwise. Btw, even my mother was telling me to go for the one fighting for me. Hence,the poisonous pedagogy I have fought my whole life to deprogram.
Carrot Jello:
"When I leave a comment, it's only for Courtney. It's just a comment. Not trying to have a discussion. With anyone. Ever.
Go find a message board about Courtney if you don't like her or her sister. Sadly, they exist."
Um...you just did leave a message for someone other than Courtney. Unless, of course, you were in fact telling Courtney to look for a message board about herself.;)
Honestly, if Cjane didn't want comments she wouldn't allow comments. If Cjane wanted privacy she wouldn't post her personal life stories on a public blog for the entire world to see.
Morgan Lee - Let's see, you said that it was "laughable" that any LDS woman would claim that marrying young is not *taught* as a goal. And what else? Oh yes, you called another woman "disingenuous" for stating that she did not feel pressure from her family or church leaders to marry young and have babies very quickly.
That's fine that you've "heard" from other people and so make assumptions, but as someone who has lived this religion my whole life, I can also give example after example of women who did not feel the need to marry young and have babies very quickly. My sister and 2 SILs are over the age of 30 and not married - and they are leading happy, productive lives. No one is harping on them to get married. Conversely, another sister got married at 19 and it put my family into a tizzy(yes, I said tizzy) because she was marrying so young. See Morgan Lee, everybody has different experiences and they are all valid. You may think you know all of Mormon culture because you talk/interact with lots of Mormon people, but we are not all the same, and it is unfair to all of us when you make assumptions.
@Morgan, I didn't say that the culture doesn't encourage it. What I said is that I never felt pressured to do so. In my opinion, the culture does encourage young marriage simply because we believe that marriage is important. We believe that families are important. Those aren't necessarily messages that the world at large teaches to women. Or men, for that matter.
I'm grateful to be a part of a church that DOES emphasize the importance of marriage and family. I'm glad that I was able to learn that early on through watching my own family and the families in my local congregation, rather than wasting some of my most energetic years in trying to find out what would really bring me long-term happiness.
Shannon said...
Hey Morgan Lee and Grace - Just as you find it annoying that people question the experiences Cjane is writing about, it is equally annoying for you to question when commenters share their experiences.
Your comments aren't annoying, I just find them to be extremely sad because these are discussions that so need to be had without defensiveness and LDS PR spin being brought into things.
Challenging dishonest(or maybe just ignorance fueled) assertions does not equal questioning individual experiences.
Cheryl's proclamation that what Courtney described isn't "The Mormon Way" is both culturally and historically inaccurate.
There are women in my life that have testimonies similar to yours, but they're able to look beyond their individual experiences and acknowledge that they were lucky and that there are very widespread problems within the church as a whole that need to be fixed.
Women who share your faith are feeling despair.
Women who share your faith are hurting.
You first reaction, not as a Mormon woman - but as a decent freakin' human being, should be to pull up your sleeves and say 'how do we fix this?'
Not defensiveness. Not ego. Not pride.
Certain comments here make it very obvious that certain people are more interested in painting a pretty picture than being pro-active within their community and (in my opinion) that is more damaging to the churches reputation than anything Courtney has posted thus far.
Rachael said...
we believe that marriage is important. We believe that families are important.
**Unless you're gay.
Grace - not sure why you feel my comments are extremely sad. I wasn't disparaging anyone for their experience. I do believe that young women can receive the impression that their value is in marrying young and having lots of kids. But not ALL LDS women feel that way and I don't like others insisting that they do. Because that's when we start seeing the disparaging comments about Stephanie and the way she has chosen to live her life, which is unfair. We should all be allowed to say "Hey, I disagree" and not be ridiculed for it. Clearly, you disagree with the church on several issues. That's the way you see things and that's fine. It's just different from the way I see things and that's fine too.
I am not mormon, or even religious. I think many of your experiences might be universal to teenagers. Those were vulnerable years. We were so confused. We were thrill seekers and rebels. We wanted to be special, make a difference and be noticed. Especially by BOYS! Hope is, most of us mature and findout what is truly important. Thanks for sharing your story!
Shannon, I repeat, I am talking about what is *generally true* in Mormon culture. Nowhere did I deny exceptions. What I thought was disingenuous was Rachael's implication that her status as an under-30, highly educated woman who happens to be expecting her fifth child, has nothing to do with her being Mormon. It does. And I stand by that statement.
And again, since your defensiveness implies that you do not believe me, I repeat that I am not making a value judgement on this at all. There is nothing at all sad or wrong about five kids born to parents who love them and want them. Likewise if we're talking 1, 8, or 19 kids.
I said in my last comment that I did not deny anyone's experience. Well, I guess if you count claiming never to have heard of something as an "experience", well then I guess I AM denying it. Everybody here knows that young marriage is generally encouraged in Mormon culture. Everybody. Even you.
But I am being too timid by saying it's purely cultural because it is not. The church leaders have urged, in so many words, for young people "not to delay" marriage and children. I could go on a mad, raving quote-collection marathon if I were so inclined, but I have tired of this.
Gosh! I had to scroll past some of these comments - there're a heap of trolls out there, it would seem!
To say this isn't the way Mormon women are indoctrinated, is laughable, but that is actually besides the point, really.
C.Jane, your honestly might not sit well with many and you've placed yourself in an extremely vulnerable position, but know this - there are many women reading this and realising the importance of addressing sensitive relationship issues with their children.
This piece of honesty had sparked something inside me. Thank you for that.
Oh, and I just LOVED 'I believed a successful woman looked like ironed sheets of high-ranged thread count.' - Brilliant writing!
Hugs to you, special lady. xx
"Everybody here knows that young marriage is generally encouraged in Mormon culture. Everybody. Even you."
There you go again trying to tell me what my life experience has been. It is not appreciated. You mistake disagreement for defensiveness.
Stop it.
I used to hate this blog. HATE IT. I thought it was superficial and fake. And now I can't go a day without it. You really are a beautiful person, and brave to share your stories. Thank you.
Shannon,
Not ALL members of any marginalized group necessarily feel affected by said marginalization.
That's a given.
Sometimes it's due to serendipity/luck.
Other times it's due to internalized oppression.
Regardless, the marginalization still exists.
Pointing out problematic patterns and practices that are prevalent within the church as a whole isn't meant to be an attack on (or dismissal of) your personal experiences.
It's an acknowledgement that experiences like those of Courtney's have become so prevalent and certain bad practices have become so entrenched within LDS that no change can come if this is addressed as anything less than a church-wide problem.
Does that make sense?
Shannon said...
Because that's when we start seeing the disparaging comments about Stephanie and the way she has chosen to live her life, which is unfair.
Meh. It's kind of lame to infantilize her in this way.
Stephanie is an adult woman who is more than capable of fielding a bit of criticism.
Based on her blog, she's also more than capable of dishing it out.
Opening up her life to speculation is how she's chosen to provide for her family.
Nie's an OG. She can deal.
Shannon said...
We should all be allowed to say "Hey, I disagree" and not be ridiculed for it.
Says a member of a church that invests millions of dollars into forcing their views onto others via legislation?
Alrighty then.
Shannon said...
Clearly, you disagree with the church on several issues. That's the way you see things and that's fine. It's just different from the way I see things and that's fine too.
You're absolutely entitled to your own opinions, but you don't get to make up your own set of facts.
I think what's tripping you up is that you can't wrap your mind around the fact that this isn't really an opinion fueled discussion.
Your opinion doesn't counteract the realities of the church as an institution, no matter how badly you want it to.
Courtney, you rock. I love reading your posts. :)
I totally agree with The Ciunis--I really didn't think that this had much to do with the LDS church influencing Courtney--although I am sure that some Mormon culture influenced her thoughts. I am thinking (and we all are just making assumptions here because Coutney hasn't really told us what led her to feel this way) that she had some self esteem issues and was confused about a lot of things. And maybe there were family influences (that were probably very well intentioned) that shaped this as well. And I think that many girls may feel this way--wanting to be controlled or owned by a man--regardless of faith or religion. The main difference here is that because of her religion she chose to marry a man instead of what some other girls might have done--moved in with him. And that is why I commented earlier and asked her to share--if she wants to--more details about this. Because when I read this post I didn't start getting all angry at the Mormon church or whatever, I started to think, "What can I DO as a mother to make sure that I am teaching my girls that their worth is NOT tied to marrying--but at the same time still teach them what a WONDERFUL experience marriage can be, and how we really should be preparing our lives to find that person who will stand by our side and help us live up to our best selves?" That is a hard balancing act, but I think it is important to teach. I mean, picking your marriage partner is probably the most important choice you will ever make in life--so we don't want to just brush it aside. People that are happily married just are happier people--it is a great institution!
And I think that is much more important--for anyone who has a daughter--or son--to be thinking about that then all this other stuff.
I think that would be much more productive--and that is what I have gotten from this.
So thank you CJane--and I would be grateful to hear more.
Carolyn - You hit the nail on the head.
Grace - "It's kind of lame to infantilize her in this way."
First of all "infantilize"? Really? Second, I was using Stephanie as an example to illustrate how unfair and untrue blanket assumptions are made by others about LDS women who marry young. But let's use my sister who married when she was 19. She was inactive and openly rebelled from the church until about a year before she married. And I guarantee that if you told her that she chose to marry young because the church taught her that's what her worth was tied to, she would laugh in your face.
"Says a member of a church that invests millions of dollars into forcing their views onto others via legislation?"
I don't know where you got this info, but it is completely inaccurate. Besides one caveat(which I won't go into), the Church does not and has not spent money to legislate their views. As someone who lived in CA during Prop 8, trust me, I know a little bit about this topic.
"Your opinion doesn't counteract the realities of the church as an institution, no matter how badly you want it to."
Huh??? Are you really trying to tell me the life that I have lived(and my sisters and SILs, not to mention the many women who posted their comments of disagreement on this blog) is just an opinion and not a reality?
Look, let me break it down for you real simple: There's no question that Mormons marry younger than the average person due to a variety of reasons. But to state that we have ALL been taught that our worth or value is based on marrying young is just not true - no matter how badly you want it to be.
One last thought: others might be writing their feelings of dissent out of a desire to protect the church. I write, not out of any obligation to shield the church(or infantilize it, if you will), but because heck if you're going to tell me what I was taught or what I believed growing up. Especially when you're dead wrong.
what a beautiful and brave way to share such a raw and delicate time in your life. keep speaking the truth - because there are many women out there LDS or not, who need to know they are not alone.
I am currently serving in a YW presidency and have for 2+ years. I have sat thru countless meetings where I hear bishops, stake presidents and us as leaders talk to the girls about getting a good education NOW so that they will be able to have their choice of the BEST Colleges and Universities out there. Why is that? Because we recognize that for some, marriage at a young age may happen but if not, we need to do what we can to prepare our girls for the best and brightest future out there. That means that yes, some girls may not get married at a young age. It will be their responsibility to provide for themselves and it's best if they do that with an education rather than working a minimum wage job. I am one who didn't get an education and was very blessed to have a job that paid well. I realize that I was blessed with it though. There are many girls who will not marry young, who will not marry at all even. Our YW need to be prepared to support themselves.
This is a story as old as time. How many women do you know that have been in an abusive relationship? I have known several, including my own mother (with a stepfather). There is a common psychology that goes with it--low self-esteem, needing a man to define one's worth, feeling power in the ability to sexually attract a "powerful" man. This isn't new and it definitely isn't unique to Mormonism. The only difference is the part where CJ felt a need to preserve some level of modesty in her quest. (Most girls today don't worry about that aspect at all.) In all other ways it is a very common tale of codependency and dysfunction that thousands of women experience regardless of their religion of choice.
This is a story as old as time. How many women do you know that have been in an abusive relationship? I have known several, including my own mother (with a stepfather). There is a common psychology that goes with it--low self-esteem, needing a man to define one's worth, feeling power in the ability to sexually attract a "powerful" man. This isn't new and it definitely isn't unique to Mormonism. The only difference is the part where CJ felt a need to preserve some level of modesty in her quest. (Most girls today don't worry about that aspect at all.) In all other ways it is a very common tale of codependency and dysfunction that thousands of women experience regardless of their religion of choice.
Shannon said...
First of all "infantilize"? Really? Second, I was using Stephanie as an example to illustrate how unfair and untrue blanket assumptions are made by others about LDS women who marry young. But let's use my sister who married when she was 19. She was inactive and openly rebelled from the church until about a year before she married. And I guarantee that if you told her that she chose to marry young because the church taught her that's what her worth was tied to, she would laugh in your face.
Again. Not everyone who is a part of a marginalized group feels directly affected by said marginalization. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed as a community issue.
Acknowledging problems within the church as a whole does not mean anyone is discounting your experiences or your sisters experiences or the lady down the streets experiences.
It means recognizing the extent to which changes need to be made in order for those experiences to become the norm.
"Says a member of a church that invests millions of dollars into forcing their views onto others via legislation?"
I don't know where you got this info
From the Mormon church.
but it is completely inaccurate.
No. Unfortunately, it's not.
Besides one caveat(which I won't go into)
i love you.
the Church does not and has not spent money to legislate their views. As someone who lived in CA during Prop 8, trust me, I know a little bit about this topic.
Hawaii and Alaska beg to differ, my love. Prop 8 just got the most press coverage.
Hawaii, Alaska, and California aside - would you like to get into the donations of legal counsel to other states? The money put into front organizations and the use of "callings" to staff them? The hiring of expensive marketing firms?
Actually, forget gay issues, how about we talk about the E.R.A?
Huh??? Are you really trying to tell me the life that I have lived(and my sisters and SILs, not to mention the many women who posted their comments of disagreement on this blog) is just an opinion and not a reality?
Nope.
I'm telling you that the opinions you've formed based on those experiences re: the churches culpability can't really be considered as a proper counter argument when discussing something like institutionalized oppression.
Look, let me break it down for you real simple: There's no question that Mormons marry younger than the average person due to a variety of reasons. But to state that we have ALL been taught that our worth or value is based on marrying young is just not true
Straw man argument.
- no matter how badly you want it to be.
I get that you're trying to throw my words back at me, but adding that on to your sentence makes absolutely no sense in the context of this conversation.
Great article Courtney, your writing is honest, thought-provoking, and important. This hit the nail on so many heads for me. Thank you. Blessings.
Great point. Same reason I hate Twilight series and couldn't undestand why a Mormon would write it. My experience as a Mormon girl is opposite. But at the same time I had an emotionally abusive father. For me it was the church (especially my mission president) that saved me from marrying the bad guy.
I'm with the moderates on this one.
First, Mormon culture does vary somewhat by region. Also ward-to-ward. Because we zone by location, some wards (centered around a college or high-tech market, for instance) have a much deeper pool of educated women. In such a ward, the Young Women are more likely to have confident mothers and empowered women teaching them. (I know I'm generalizing and maybe even stereotyping. Sorry.)
I spent several years in a ward (coastal Florida) where only a handful of the women had any higher schooling. A few had a college degree, and a few more had a temple marriage, but I could count on one hand the ladies who had both.
Most of the women were also adult converts. They tended to romanticize things. Many of them said things like "Oh, I wish I could raise my children in Utah. It must be so much easier there..." (My parents, who had both grown up in The Valley, insisted that they preferred living outside of Mormonville.) They also idealized celestial marriage, especially if they weren't in one.
Second, yes, there was LOTS of emphasis on chastity and dating and marriage and children. I got sick of all the "preparing for temple marriage" lessons.
My sister and I used to roll our eyes and make fun of the stock lesson. "Every good Molly Mormon," we mocked, "Gets a B average. Then she goes to BYU, where she meets an RM and gets engaged after six weeks. During her sophomore year, she drops out and gets married..."
This was definitely a cultural issue.
Fortunately, we were blessed to have wise parents. Lessons my mom pounded into our heads: 1) don't get engaged at nineteen, no matter what; 2) graduate from college before you get married; 3) look for a man who is worthy AND mature AND kind AND smart enough for you; 4) It is better to be single than stuck in a mismatch, and the right partner is worth waiting for; and 6) Trust in God and live righteously. Everyone gets a fair chance at eternal happiness. If things don't work out in this life, wait for the next.
From my dad: Tell the scary teen-age boy who is stalking you to go away. Be assertive. If you don't handle it yourself, I will do it for you.
Second point. Another cultural problem we Mormons have involves being the "shining example." Because we are still viewed with suspicion by so many people, we feel a pressure to be portray "I'm a Mormon and I'm such a nice person and a good neighbor and not at all weird, honest!"
Also, we emphasize missionary work. The purported reason is that we're so blessed, we want to share our happiness with everyone else. And we're under commandment to "warn our neighbors." Somewhere in there, though, we turn this into an internal feeling that we ought to "sell" ourselves by portraying a "practically perfect" life.
I had a friend with a serious psychiatric disorder who was afraid to seek professional help because she would have to tell a non-LDS doctor about her weaknesses and troubled childhood. I told her to get the help she needed now and worry about being a good missionary later.
So, in summary:
1) Yes, in many places, there is a cultural, but not doctrinal, problem.
2) People have different experiences; some girls felt the pressure of silly cultural expectations, some didn't. Yay for those who didn't.
3) People, especially youth, frequently have trouble differentiating between what is cultural and what is doctrinal.
4) It's fine to discuss it. We don't have to be perfect. The gospel helps to give us tools for solving our challenges. So let's model constructive problem solving by admitting the issue, discussing it calmly, and brainstorming solutions.
5) C. Jane did just that. She didn't blame anyone. She related her experience honestly. Thanks.
6) People are imperfect. Mercifully, God's grace, the atonement, works miracles.
As a man growing up in the church, I can say I had somewhat of an orthogonal experience - I bought into media images about what it means to be sexy and what a "normal" relationship is. 20 years and two marriages later, I find myself still unravelling the tangle of ideas.
Here's the deal. Neither my parents nor my church talked with me straight up about these issues. I learned about relationships and marriage from whatever sources I could find, usually friends. As a result, I compartmentalized what the church taught and what my friends said, so I was not able to discriminate the information coming in from unhealthy channels.
Here is what I do these days- first, I read like crazy, both church literature and the best books I can find from the secular world. (Both have a lot to offer) Then I talk about it with my family all the time. I start talking to my kids about relationships and sex around age 8. My wife and I dig and pry and constantly talk with our kids about their friends, dating, and the media they see. Talk talk talk. Is it working? I sure hope so.
I am still in the process of coming to terms with the failure of my own relationship. It was abusive, manipulative, and a seven year long temple sealing that produced three boys. I know that his actions are not my fault. I don't feel a lack of self confidence. I know my mind and I feel good about my choices, despite what my ex has said about and to me. What I don't know if why did I ever get involved with him in the first place? Why did I let it go on so long? Reading other peoples' experiences (like this post) shines a little ray of light through the darkness of those questions. Thank you for being so honest with the world in ways I have not wanted to be honest with myself. You have given me a lot to think about.
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