Wednesday, March 24, 2010

A Post About A Post

As you might have heard,
I wrote a post a couple weeks ago about equality. Equality between the genders specifically. It was actually a post that woke me up in the middle of the night, made me sit at the computer, captivated me until it was all written and let me sleep in the next day. It was an intense relationship, that post and me.

And it was just getting started.

Due to the reaction I received from readers, I continued to date that post. It regularly woke me up in the middle of the night. It was with me first thing in the morning. I read reactions from people who agreed with me and I contemplated ideas that differed from mine. But for some reason, I couldn't write that post off.

I decided to do some research. Not because I doubted how I felt when I wrote that post, but because I was terribly ignorant of how passionately it would be received--even in my own heart. And as a blogger (one who gets paid to write, especially) I do feel a certain responsibility to not only write a post, but see it all the way through until it feels right (which is why I will write post-edits many times).

(I am also learning that a difference between being a writer and a blogger is instantaneous, and bountiful feedback. When I write to be published I work with one editor. But with blogging, there are hundreds of editors. So much for my idea that blogging would save me from the dreaded second draft, or worse, the fire-breathing editor.) (P.s. I love my editor.) (P.p.s. I appreciate your taking time to comment, Dear Reader, as long as you do not--as I have said this before--call me fat in my third trimester.)

But this post . . . this post came with it intensity I haven't felt before. And I wondered if I could see it through. Ideas are powerful especially when they are projected into a vast unknown audience. For the first time I was taking my blog really seriously. Heaven help me, I WAS FEELING RESPONSIBLE.

Many times in the course of writing this blog have I changed my mind about what I've written. I mean, I started out as an infertile Vegan and have become a fertile Meat Eater--just to name one HUGE transformation. But this post in question wasn't asking me to change my mind, this post was asking me to dig deeper.

So I did.

I asked trusted family members (including my own wise mother). I emailed with strangers (one particularly interesting one in Idaho). I studied scriptures. I had conversations with a therapist. I picked Chup's brain until it was raw. I read, a lot. I prayed. Lo, I even went to my nearest Mormon temple and mediated in one of our most holiest of places.

I told you, I got serious.

And I couldn't respond to that post, or to the responses of that post, with dignity and confidence until I knew in my heart I was ready. I respect those people who care enough to click on my blog to give them the best part of me--which once was heavily salted with pictures of me in my pink skirt--to now, which is my quest for self-examination as my life gets more complicated.

Funny how the term "enjoy it" has changed for me.

Anyway, the past week The Post (now a personable noun in my life) has been waking me up in the earliest of morning hours, telling me it is time to write down what I have learned. Due to a pregnancy-related disability to "hop out of bed" I gave myself until Thursday night to actually blog on this now-passionate subject.

So tomorrow night it is. And in the end, I have to know that I am going to write this for myself. Even if it interests no other person, I can say it was worth the adventure. Also, thanks to those who helped me along the way, both the upfront readers (agreed, disagreed) and the ones behind the scenes.

And then I hope to tuck The Post back into my archives for safe keeping. It has been healthy-life-changing relationship, and it will be time to move on to the next.

Consider yourself warned. At least.

Today on dear c jane:
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crissy said...

I didn't comment on that post, but I definitely found it interesting and thought-provoking.
Looking forward to your next post, and what you'll say about it.

thorney said...

I look forward to reading your thoughts/observations/feelings on "The Post".

Untypically Jia said...

I want to say that I LOVED that post and I agreed with it, so I am very interested in hearing your deeper thoughts.

I also think this teaser is mean.

But will forgive you anyways. ♥

Trish and Greg said...

I did comment on that post. I loved it! and I loved the link to the essay you found that got you thinking about the post in the first place! From where I stand (or sit, actually) it was all good!

What I appreciated most was the intense, heartfelt, and mostly respectful discussion that ensued after the post. It certainly got me thinking, and helped me clarify in my mind where I stand on the issue. Thank you. Waiting to see your post-post. (haha)

Jet said...

THIS is why I read you. I thought that post was thoughtful and thought provoking. I didn't agree with most of what you said, but I saw your point. I thought that some of your comments were really very interesting and insightful, a couple I can recall almost verbatim, which says something about how they've stuck with me. I'll be so interested in hearing about where your self-reflection has taken you. For me as a reader, whether I agree with it or not is irrelevant. I appreciate you sharing your process.

lil said...

I'm glad it made you think, and I'm very glad you are going to come back on the subject. I must admit that your lack of reaction to the comments you got were a bit disapointing and frustrating... I see now that I was mistaken, that you did pay attention to your readers. I'm looking forward to your next post !

anne said...

Tomorrow's post should be interesting, but I predict that it will open up another can of worms and the comments will fly. Mark my words.

Anonymous said...

I have a feeling you haven't changed your mind at all, and you're even more convinced that women are inferior to men, thanks in part to your religion. A pity.

Amanda said...

Cannot wait to see what information you have found on this touchy subject! You are a VERY brave woman, and I think we can all agree, and admire that.
Thanks for blogging cjane, I read you first every day!
p.s. you look beautiful in your third trimester! Im sure Chup would agree :)

The Boob Nazi said...

This should be interesting. I'm curious as to what you're going to say and what you learned from it.

Jennifer said...

"And in the end, I have to know that I am going to write this for myself. Even if it interests no other person, I can say it was worth the adventure."


That is why I blog. Most of my posts are mundane, but the ones that are not (in my opinion) are written for ME, not for my readers.

I have recently added my "About Me" to say "I actually blog for me, not others. If other people want to read it, that's fine. If not, that's fine, too. If I were to start blogging about stuff to get more readers or comments, I wouldn't feel true to myself."

And another opinion of mine: anonymous commenters that do not give their name do it for a reason. They want to hide behind their comments. If they are afraid of publicly admitting to what they say, and won't tell you who they are, their opinion does not matter.

Keep up the FANTASTIC work, CJane!!

Lindsay said...

You're the coolest lady I pretend to know. I have so much respect for you.

One Blue Blonde said...

I didn't comment on the post but have thought about it on and off. In the end, I found the post a bit ironic. The only reason you were able to make a conscious decision about your role in your marriage is because of feminist who have fought to give you a choice. The choice to defer to your husband is a legitimate choice, but so are contrary decisions. I guess the question for me is, should women have equal rights to choose their role in life. And the answer for me is "yes". So I'm a feminist, even if I choose to stay at home and allow my husban to head the family. I look forward to reading your further thoughts.

Funky Kim said...

I also didn't comment on The Post, but I agreed with it. I can't wait to see what you've come up with as The Post II.

LKC said...

Wait. When did you start eating meat? I think I missed something somewhere...

Anonymous said...

I was reading this blog this morning and thought you would REALLY appreciate it. I know I did. Very interesting thoughts on grief.

-emily angela

Anonymous said...

Dear CJane:

What a great post this is. I sometimes comment on people's blogs. I like being part of a big conversation. Not being a writer myself however, I haven't thought that much about the responsibility of blogging. It has always felt like a light form of writing... until that post. I commented and read and commented and checked. It was awesome. The ability to lead/have a public conversation with to have so many thoughtful responses (I know you omitted the inappropriate ones) is an important thing - maybe the most important reason that the internet has developed and certainly part of why this country did. Thank you for this forum. It matters. The pain you went through mattered. It is not enough to have the opportunity to speak, one must take the risk and actually speak. And you do. Awesome!

One quick word about anonymity. I know some people have turned off comments to anonymous commenters, but I really respect that you don't. I'm not that secretive about my identity, I just want folks to consider the content more than the source. On your part there is nothing to fear from allowing anonymous comments to continue except that you will get some hate (ugh!) in there. Please don't sanitize or select your audience. The value of the work you do is in it's ability to reach and admit people who are different not those who already believe similarly. You are strong enough for it, and stronger for it. As I tell my students... draw the criticism, it can only make you better...

thanks again.

Renee said...

Awesome - I've been thinking so much about that post. In a good way. So much so that I linked to it in my Free Form Friday for this week. I thought it was excellent! It got me thinking and that's always a good thing.

Brie said...

"Anonymous" was rather snarky there with their comment above, saying they "have a feeling you still believe that women are inferior to men due to your religion", however I must admit that a less-snarky version of this same idea crossed my mind. I would love for you to comment on this in The Post Part 2. I am not LDS, I also did not agree with most of The Post. I know little of your religion, so I am in no position at all pass judgment, and I have respect and love for people of all religions, cultures and lifestyles. However I am curious to know if your stance on women is common among Mormons. Please educate me, I might be getting the wrong impression. Are there "feminist" or "equal-ist" Mormon women? It may be a stereotype, but I have gotten the impression over the years that in Mormon families/communities, men are viewed in higher regard than women. I hope this will be mentioned in your post and clarified for me.

Anyways, I always enjoy your blog and look forward to reading the post regardless of what it is about. Don't let mean comments get you down, you rock. Thanks CJane!

Cristi said...

Anonymous #1, please take your gripes elsewhere. "Her" church does not in any way diminish women. Only those who truly do not understand the doctrine and do not have the Spirit enlightening their minds and understanding would make a claim otherwise. If you are so bothered by Cjane's beliefs and opinions, then feel free to do your reading and commenting somewhere else. Heaven knows there are plenty of anti-Mormon forums to be found where you can spew all kinds of ugliness most freely. Your anonymous comments really add nothing to the discussion.

Anonymous said...

i didn't comment on your first post, but did think about it on and off - or each time i went back to your blog to read. I'm wondering specifically how your thoughts on feminism as you define it will illustrate how you give birth. Women in your room only with the men outside smoking cigars? Perhaps Mormon men don't smoke cigars - even for the birth of their children. I'm not being snarky - just don't know that much about your faith. Is birthing in front of your husband too much of a reality - too womenly? too feminine? I hope you discuss this as part of your blog. I find what you say interesting on a naive and basic level. Modern women of today have work, babies, pregnancy and houses to run. Most of your life seems idealistic and encased in some time capsule.

Susan said...

Oh darn, I missed that post. I must admit that I get a bigger kick on reading the comments sometimes ;) Keep it coming.

Julie Ann said...

YES! Can't wait! :)

Ann said...

You haven't even written it yet and already have an anonymous comment saying it is a "pity." And saying you feel "inferior to men" (which you made very clear in the original post that you in no way feel inferior to men). And anonymous also felt the need to blame your so-called inferiority to men in part to your religion.
And so it has already begun.
The religion is already being blamed and attacked. You are already having your words twisted.
Now that is the real pity.

Nat said...

I loved that post. I can honestly say I've never wondered about the whole feminist thing. I'm comfortable with my gender and my role as a wife and mother. I embrace and love it, in fact! I'm sure a lot of that has to do with my husband who makes me feel as his equal.

And by the way, "anonymous", our religion doesn't teach that women are inferior to men. We are taught that we are each others equals, each with a very different and important role that compliments and is very necessary for the other. The exact wording is a "help-meet." Look it up.

Cjane--you are way more gutsy than I am to put it all out there. I tend to take things too personally. You have feelings of steel! :)

Brittany said...

I'm excited to read your further thoughts. I'd like to say that I am a feminist not because I believe the totality of one's experience can ever exactly equal the totality of another's, but because I believe men and women should be treated with complete and total equality.

Looking forward to your post! Whether you agree with me or not.

Anonymous said...

I think you are making this issue a tad too complicated myself--and taking yourself leetle too seriously my dear. I'm sure your thoughts will be interesting, but don't take on so much responsibility--people just enjoy mouthing off and reacting, and then they go on with their lives. It's entertainment, not life changing doctrine.

Laura said...

I love reading your thoughts and discussing them with my friends. Thank you for being a bright part of our dark, long winter in the far North.

Kim said...

Oh Courtney I just love you. I can't wait to meet you at CBC (I'm a speaker there) and give you a hug.

KroonFamily said...


You make bold statements and hide behind the "anonymous" lable. WHY? Are you afraid of the backlash? If you attach your profile, Cjane could email you (which believe it or not she does... I know because she has emailed me.) That would be a productive conversation... not just you stating your opinion and leaving it there with no resolution.

Cjane: I love that you are willing to have a real two people, engaged in a DIALOGUE. That is the thing that irks me most about this whole debate... it just seems like too many people want to just dump their opinions on you anonymously without affording you the respect of being able to respond back.

Your decision to respond this way shows so much maturity and respect. It shows how deeply connected to the Holy Spirit you are. You are letting yourself be directed by that voice. Trust it. Even if someone disagrees with you. Even if someone calls you a hypocrite. Even if you FEEL like a hypocrite sometimes. Trust it!!! I have heard you say many times before that everyone is on a different path... this is yours.

I am going to pray that after you hit publish... you sleep well and that deep in your soul you can trust the leading you have in your life.

Soul-Fusion said...

I've been reading your blog for a very long time and this is my first comment. Admittedly, I was disappointed by the views you expressed on "The Post" but didn't know how to say I disagree but still respect your point of view because I felt so strongly at the time. Your post has stuck with me and stimulated my own conversations with others so I look forward to reading more of your thoughts on the subject - regardless of whether they jive with my own. I believe we often learn the most from those with whom we disagree.

jennypage said...

Thank you for revisiting. As past readers have said, the comments were too emotional and too passionately felt to not warrant a response. Regardless of the content of tomorrow's post (and I didn't agree with you), I admire and appreciate the effort and interest in revisiting.

Anonymous said...

I am one of those behind the scene, but had to tell you I am so excited. I happened to not like that post so much and am so fine with thinking different. I also wanted to let you know that I am not fat but some mean person came on my "mommy" blog and called me fat. I am built like you they just wish they had curves. You get the hips with the boobs that is what I have come to tell myself. You can add blogging for boobs and hips on your profile

Anonymous said...

You're the coolest lady I pretend to know. LOL... SO TRUE I love it!

Laura said...

You don't have to be a feminist to have self-respect, joy in womanhood, a strong back bone, and a healthy appreciation for modern women's rights. If someone called me a feminist, I would not consider it a compliment. But really, what it comes down to is the definition of the word. Which, clearly, is different for different people.

Kmarie said...

I think it does come down to this.You need to believe what is integral to you.
This is a controversial issue and one that needs careful consideration from material across the globe. From books from every religious writer as well as agnostics. I would suggest reading HAlf the Sky first to see first hand the oppression women receive in the name of gender issues. (They have a website.) Also Joan Chittister a catholic nun has quite a few chapters in her book "Called to Question." From a muslim perception the book by Greg Mortenson "Three Cups of tea" deals with this. For an evangelical christian standpoint read some of Tony Campolo's material. From a psychology perspective the "Sexual paradox." I also beleive there is some great mormon material out there. In every religion there are different perceptions.

These are all excellent resources to read to get healthy perceptions from people who are good no matter what religion and have good things to say about the need for women to be treated with more empathy and justice. For what it is worth I think you are a good person even if you happen to disagree with me, Even if we come from two opposing religions. In the end it all comes down to love in action. Justice, mercy, compassion, and releasing the poor from oppression.

Please- before you write the post- please read some stories from Half the sky. As incentive I will even buy you the book and send it to you through chapters:) ( It is not from any specific religion or political standpoint.)
Let me know.
Thanks C Jane - you are very brave, No one will ever completely agree all the time. We need to just make peace with our differences.

Christiana said...

It is so interesting to me that people come to your blog, where you make no secret of your beliefs, and then try to persuade you that you are wrong. Makes me wonder what it is inside them that compels them to condescend and reprimand you for what they perceive to be your wrong ideas. Again - in your own space where they are visitors.

Personally, I read your blog because I love your writing. It's skillful. It's inspiring. It's you. And that's what I come here to experience.

According to what you said in this post, that's what you intend to do tonight - to write something in your own voice for yourself.

So at least the two of us will be happy.

Anonymous said...

"The post" made me think. Then your commentors made me mad - one said that by being unequal she had balance in her life - In my opinion inequality can't equal or balance anything, except iniquity, aka sin.

Looking forward to your next post.

Torrie said...

Did someone really ask if Mormon women have a baby while the men smoke a cigar outside the room? Really? Do they know the "normal" next door neighbor who was at the hospital when you gave birth could possibly be a Mormon? She was doing the same thing as you, having a baby. Before you make a comment of course anonymously you should really open your mind a little. Mormon women all think differently and have different opinions just like all other women in the world. Because cjane says it does not mean it is how all Mormon women feel or act. We do have fundamental things (doctrine) we believe in according to our religion but, Do all Catholics act and think the same? That is what makes the world interesting our differences, let us choose to learn from our differences and be tolerant instead of judging and making off the wall comments, better yet with your name and not anonymously.

Ashley said...

"If you never change your mind, why have one?" -Edward de Bono

Bryn said...

While I have not been courting your post as seriously perhaps as you have been, I have been flirting with it during the day quite often. I have thought about feminism and what that means and where I really sit on the matter. It all depends on the definitions. I've thought about equality and fairness and sameness as it applies to the sexes but more often than not I have thought about blogging and what that means. Why do we write them and why we do we read them. I have specifically wondered about why you wrote the post in the first place? Was it the blog post that you referred to that was the genesis of the post you wrote or was it merely the spark that ignited a bunch of kindling that had accumulated from several experiences. Were the experiences the ones you listed in the blog or are there others that were key to your line of thought? Like you said Chup said, so much of this discourse has to do with semantics. I feel like if you as the writer and us as the readers were all exactly clear on the definition of some words I think a lot of the disagreement would evaporate. I wasn't especially offended when I read the post. I felt like I knew what you were trying to say but I didn't especially agree with how you said it. It is a tricky subject and so much of it depends on what meaning we each ascribe to some key words. What was clear is that you felt a need to draw a line in the sand and declare which side you were on. Many readers found themselves on the other side of the line and that caused a sense of alienation from you which was uncomfortable. Whether you mean to be or not I think you are seen as a spokesperson for your audience and that audience wants to feel as if you have their back. From the comments it seemed that those women who are fighting inequality and injustices based on their gender it seemed like you turned your back on their plight. I don't believe this is what you intended but I see how it came across that way. I am glad that you took the comments seriously because it is a serious topic, clearly more serious to some than others depending on one's life circumstance. I am eagerly looking forward to your reply and hope that it includes clear definitions on some key terms as well as more explanation about the impetus for your position. Thanks for the dialogue!

Sarah said...

"Regardless of the content of tomorrow's post (and I didn't agree with you), I admire and appreciate the effort and interest in revisiting."

Ditto that.

Lisa said...

Looking foward to the post. I recently have done a lot of research on this topic as well. I'm so happy and confident with my femininity, I love being a stay at home mother, and I do respect my husband as the head of our home. I'm so happy with my femininity. I adore that my husband and I are different creatures and that we seem to complete each other.

Don't let the feminists get you down. I think they do a lot more harm than good. They say they just want equality and rights, and I'm all for woman's rights. But feminist leaders a couple decades ago were calling housewives parasites. In this new decade I have to say I'm still feeling that sting of judgement for being a happy housewife and not some high paid, power career woman. And our children and marriages are suffering because of it.

kelly said...

i just come for the funny, light, retro cjane!

Ms. LaPointe said...

I wish I had the time to go back and read through the 600+ comments on The Post but alas! I'm already in the midst of a self induced breakdown from trying to tackle too much so instead, I'll look forward to Part II and go from there!

Megan said...

Anonymous, my LDS husband was there for every birth, holding my hand and talking me through the pain of my natural births.
HE wanted to be the one providing all the comfort I needed :), even to the point of asking me to not hire the doula I was contemplating. He was also there while I recovered, making meals and bringing the baby to me in the middle of the night so my body could heal. Every Mormon woman I know had their husbands support them during childbirth.

CJane, kudos to you for revisiting "the post" and handling the personal attacks with grace. (although I felt the majority of comments in disagreement were very respectful and enlightening)

I was one of the SAHMs who disagreed with your post, but grateful for the compelling discussion it evoked.
I respect your point of view, and look forward to your thoughts on the feminist comments.

springrose said...

I think there are some that will never understand our role as "Mormon Women". Some of us don't even understand it. But those that listen, truely listen to what President Hinkley said about women get it. We know we are equal, not just equal, but on a pedastal. I agreed whole heartedly with you on "The Post". But there will always be the "anonymous" comments. Just know that you know in your heart the truth and so does the Lord, as well as those of us the listened to our Prophets voice. Thanks Cjane for all your thoughts so well written. Can't wait to read tomorrow!

Shannon said...

My favorite is the anon who says she is not being snarky. No, not snarky. Just rude, condescending and uninformed. But, lucky you, CJane! She finds your writing interesting. You know, on a "naive and basic level".

Jennifer Bowman said...

Looking forward to it.

Lisa B. said...

I didn't comment either, but I have had a relationship with that post, and with you through that post, that you didn't even know about!

Let me just say this, with all good feeling and support for you, you awesome, full-of-awesome-energy woman, that I think you didn't think all the way through what "equal" means, and where "equal" matters most, which is in the eyes of the law. Understanding *that* is what makes a person a feminist.

I remember when a married woman could not get a credit card in her own name. When it was legal to discriminate against women in the workplace, to not offer a job to a qualified woman if they wanted to offer the job to a man. I don't know if I think men and women are truly, at the core of our beings, different--I often feel that they are--but there are things in the eyes of the law that have not been right, have not been fair, and understanding that, and believing that, for the sake of my daughters and sisters and mother, I have to be opposed to that unfairness, and to advocate for more fairness in our laws and social practices--that's what makes me a feminist.

And I love your blog. And I cheer you on. So glad you offered this insight into your ongoing process, which in turn made me feel like I ought to say what I'd been thinking ever since you posted the first time. Can't wait to hear what you have to say.

Jana said...

Since gender "Equality" is tricky, check out the term "Parity" instead. "Equality or equivalence IN THE CONTEXT OF DIFFERENCE" I can't think of a better way to describe in one word our relationship as men/women, husbands/wives, sons/daughters of God. Even-ness, sharing, just-ness, mutuality...but always in the context of eternal differences. Parity.

Laura said...

Love your writing CJane. Love your willingness to share your thoughts. Love your braveness for dealing with the rude and ignorant comments.

I liked "the post", but I don't think I understood it exactly. I couldn't decide exactly what you were saying and if I agreed. But I liked the thoughts and comments. It will be nice to hear more of your and others thoughts.


On a side note, I am LDS and it fascinates me that some people think our church teaches that women are less than men. I have never felt that. I do not believe that. I beleive women and men are equal but different. And I like that. It's good to know what others think though.

tharker said...

How much do you want to be you go into labor before tomorrow night? ;)

Shantel said...

It will be interesting to hear your perspective. Our perspective changes as we gain knowledge. So no one is entirely right, and no one is entirely wrong. It's all individual. Just like the Lords plan for us, as well as how our prayers are answered. Personally - individually. Even living prophets are there to give as a different perpective from where they are at - and then we take that information and it opens the door to personal revelelation for us. The Lord makes it apply to us - where we are at - whatever rung of the ladder we are on. It's a wonderful miracle how that happens.

Anonymous said...

"cjane", i am hoping you acknowledge how limited your perspective is. although I agree with you on an idealistic level, it's too NAIVE geographically and realistically. i.e. if you and i were to engage in conversation with a refugee from haiti, would you really say that stuff to HER? i hope not, because it would sound like fluff--unless you're in a room full of us mormon women, living in utah.

why is my identity anonymous? because that would mean i would have to care enough to make a profile of myself. i don't want a computer identity--they're not real. they're not what real friendships are made of. .......but thanks for the distraction, it's entertainment at some level.

*MARY* said...

I am also frequently awaken in the night by blog post ideas. Too bad they're never hot topic, controversial ideas like you have, they're more like whoa-that-dream-I-just-had-about-Skeletor-would-make-a-great-blog-post ideas, or AnthroPOOlogie clothes look a lot like stuff I'd find at the DI kind of ideas.

Anonymous said...

Christiana said, "Makes me wonder what it is inside them that compels them to condescend and reprimand you for what they perceive to be your wrong ideas. Again - in your own space where they are visitors"
Really?....if it was truly hers, and she didn't want any attention, notariety, controversy, traffic or money- wouldn't it be smarter to make a blog that you needed an invitation to read? I mean c'mon, what do you think fuels so many of her posts.

cortnieb said...

Super excited and so glad you are saying something too....I'm not after a drag out fight here. But a discussion. I think so many of your readers who don't share the same faith have so many questions for you!! To be honest, I was getting sick of reading some of the anonymous peeps negatives comments about Mormons. I understand people can have their own opinions and stuff, but seriously....when it comes to my beliefs and some of the stuff they would say I was like....back off!!! Good luck CJane, I truly look forward to your words tonight!!

Mindy Gledhill said...

I love you Court.

Nichole and Jeremy said...

I am thankful to be a woman. I love it! I am glad I get to be the one that takes care of my son every day. I am thankful that I had the experience to have a child.

My thoughts are not so much about, "The Post", as they are about being a Mother and just the joy of being a woman.

I worked in a daycare for a couple of years and I had one little boy, who was a handful. He was there from 6am to 6pm. Both parents were Engineers and very successful. I asked her one time how I could better help her son, and she responded, "You know him better then me", to this day this comment saddens me.

I just think, so many women today are so worried about being everything that they forget the most important things. Find Balance and Joy in the Journey. There is no POWER ON EARTH AS STRONG AS A WOMANS LOVE!

And to this day, this is one of my favorite quotes. So if I can be more of a woman of God then a Woman of the world. I know I have done my part

Women of God can never be like women of the world. The world has enough women who are tough; we need women who are tender. There are enough women who are coarse; we need women who are kind. There are enough women who are rude; we need women who are refined. We have enough women of fame and fortune; we need more women of faith. We have enough greed; we need more goodness. We have enough vanity; we need more virtue. We have enough popularity; we need more purity.

God Bless you all in your Journey through this life.

Telley said...

As your readers, I think we all owe you the respect you deserve by trusting what you say in regards to your own opinions. When you say you don't feel inferior, you don't - it really is that simple. Whether or not your semantics, descriptions, examples, etc. give me another idea in my own mind, you know what you mean to convey. As my very wise four-year old son tries to tell me whenever I put words in his mouth "But you don't know that, Mom, because you're NOT ME. You CAN'T know what I mean because I am me." Truly enlightened, compassionate, well-informed minds can disagree without discrediting/negating divergent beliefs.

Veronica said...

Despite the many naysayers, I knew you would respond AND would honestly think about the comments. I look forward to your post of THE Post especially after reading this very thoughtful post about The Post. Sorry, now I am being silly with all the posts. Cheers!

Chrissy Jo said...

I'm interested in reading what more you have to say on the subject. I though "The Post" was written well, even if I didn't completely agree on every level, but just like Chup said it's all about semantics... Your definitions and my definitions are different, but I do think there is something we can both agree on:

God will never love me more or love me less for simply being a woman. Period.

Anonymous said...


I totally understand that you searched 'this topic' out for yourself and i get it. But, i have to admit that in the beginning i loved reading your blog because you're a confident woman who happens to be an excellent writer. i love that you're somewhat of a spitfire- you share your opinions wether people like them or not. and that is what i liked about you. I think it's important to share your opinion and not care what others think. I understand that is so incredibly hard to do- especially for myself- but that is why I really looked up to you. It just feels like you are letting others opinions really influence what you write AND what you think, as of late. It makes me sad that all the harsh comments are written, but it makes it even worse that they are effecting you. I like your blog when you write all the 'bullshit' of life and that is that. I just hope you can find a way to really keep this blog something that is for YOU, and really try not to let those incredibly mean and out-of-line people bother you. Because we love you- and who cares about the rest.


Cassidy Miller said...

I have to say all the drama form your blog is a little distracting... maybe you should stop accepting comments again? I think that was better.

Amy C said...

You go girl! I loved "The Post" and felt freed by your thoughts in the sense that I can be comfortable defining my female-place in the world my own way. My shallow thoughts are that men and women are apples and oranges. You can have an equal number of them, slice them up equally, and serve them equally each week. But "equality" can only go so far. Is one fruit "inferior" because it's color differs from the other? Is one "better" because it has a stronger flavor? Can we deny their textures are different? An orange is appropriate in certain situations, an apple in another, and many times either will suffice. How can we define equality in that? And why do we have to??

Shauna said...

This title is how the I feel the truest Mormon men feel about women:

The Remarkable Soul of a Woman

With loving insight, President Dieter F. Uchtdorf addresses two attributes that contribute to our Heavenly Father's perfect happiness - the power of creation and service with compassion.

By listening to the Spirit, you can come to realize that creating is not just done with paint, pen, or pottery, and compassionate service is more than a casserole or a card. As you bring something into existence that has never been before and as you serve others - even in small ways - you cannot help but participate in the wonder that is God's joy and help you realize what a great power for good you truly are.

I am not in any way connected to this book or the store, I just ordered this new book and think it will speak nicely to this topic. As, too, have you, Courtney!

Anonymous said...

I recently watch a movie that gave me an new perspective on feminism and our struggle for women to be accepted as equal value human beings in the world. I strongly recommend it to all, it is "The Stoning of Soraya M." and it shows what life is like for women in many parts of the world.

I apologize if my English is not too good, please forgive my errors.

Na Sue Yeon, I am not anonymous!!!

Cardalls said...

A true blue Mormon woman here who understood what Courtney was saying but can see why others wouldn't. AS a mother of (almost) 5 children my husband has been present for all the births. This is how it is for ALL of my LDS friends as well. I cannot imagine him not being there for this spiritual event. It has increased our love and respect for each other. In many ways my husband holds me up on a pedestal and respects and honors me daily. I hold him in the same regard...we are different in so many ways but equal.

Lauren said...

Someone called you fat? You hold them, I'll kick them in the knees.

L said...

I enjoy that someone say out loud political incorrect opinions such as: "I don't believe in equality". And girls who admit they are not feminists.

I agree with you and I am really looking forward to that deep post!

Becca said...

The first post has been making me think and it's awesome to hear that it has been making you think too.

I'm excited to read what your ponderings have wrought. I love this discussion (which has been respectful for the most part)and the fact that we,a s women, can HAVE this discussion.

Elizabeth said...

I read the original post and found it thought provoking. I didn't view it as right or wrong--your opinion.

Personally, I think for every woman there is a unique viewpoint on the subject. For every age or set of life experiences, there is a viewpoint on the subject. There is no right or wrong answer.

Attacking you, your religion or your life circumstances is not appropriate...ever.

I appreciate your post and am looking forward to the next one. Thank you.

tawnya said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tawnya said...

Adding to say that, of course, while I don't AGREE with your post, I respect that it's your opinion. My point was just to have a disclaimer that you don't speak for all Mormon women or that your interpretation should be taken as doctrine.

Candice Shumman said...

If people had a true argument that they had thought through and had validity to it (either in your favor or not), they would not have to resort to snarky, mean comments. It shows SO much about them, that they immediately choose to go with harsh judgement and unkindness (instead of saying, I respectfully disagree and this is why).

If they truly had a valid argument, they would find a way to do it with kindness and tact. The minute they start their rant with cruelty, I smile and move on. If you can't take the time to think things through properly and in an adult manner, I'm not going to waste my time.

Thanks for the way you choose to share your know, all adult-like, kind and with respect.

c jane said...

I know, Retro c jane was so cute.

c jane said...

And I hope you do the same Tawnya.

tawnya said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thelma said...

It's a loaded topic and I'm grateful for the Spirit which teaches me. I don't feel like I can adequately explain it, but I Know and I agree with you.

I'm looking forward to your post.

Tonia said...

I loved The Post version 1.0. It lead to a great discussion with my husband and sister. It made me think about who I am and what labels I am am willing , or not willing to accept. It made me so grateful to be a woman, especially an LDS woman, who knows her true value. Can't wait to hear more.

tawnya said...

Apologies have been emailed, but I'll repeat here. I'm sorry that my comment came across as unnecessarily harsh. I did not intend for it to sound that way (I swear it was phrased better in my head!) and I feel bad because the last thing I wanted to do was sound like I was beating up your opinion! So, however you want to read it in your head that makes it sound better (and makes me sound less of a wench...) go for it!

And, now, I swear I'll go back to lurking and try to save SOME dignity since I often need it. Clearly.

Jennifer said...

I commented earlier, but am back. I know you like it!

A couple of things, and these are really not on-topic.

1 - I like you. If we met in real life, I think we could be friends.
2 - When I commented earlier, I selected to be notified of the other comments. While I was making supper, I got a couple notifications telling me that you commented. I "squee"d because we were online at the same time. (Dorkiness, thy name is me.)
3 - I blogged about your posts on feminism. I am now rolling "what feminism means to me" around in my mind.

julia said...

I'm sick of reading the word Naysayers, and the assumption that people who disagree are attacking each other. I read every single comment on her feminist post, and there were very few truly attacking comments. They did suck, but overwhelmingly, I think people were respectful. Everyones entitled to their opinions, and disagreements are not attacks. I'm sure she gets many nasty emails, but seriously, which is mean, but people are mean, and she can choose to ignore them as well.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for being so thoughtful about everything you say and do. Even when you write things I don't agree with, it always comes from a place of honesty and earnest inquiry. Besides, who wants to live in a world where everyone has the same beliefs and biases? I think it is real and difficult conversations and constant questioning that gets us forward in life.

Chi-townRawlins said...

If nothing else comes of The Post, it is this:
Mormon women formulate their own thoughts. Mormon women are not subjugated to men. Mormon women are not held in lesser respect than men. Mormon women are, in fact, held in great esteem by ALL MEN throughout the church except the ones who are complete idiots. Mormon women are pretty much exactly like Regular Christian Women. We value our families and sometimes that results in us staying home. And sometimes that results in us go out and working. And that is ALL ACCEPTABLE (and, in fact, respected and revered) in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The ONLY requirement is that we do the best we can in all of our vocations (mother/wife/life outside the home). And "the best" is dictated by US and the SPIRIT. Not by any men anywhere.
The idea that was being perpetuated throughout the comments for the last one, that somehow Cjane's ideals were PROVIDED FOR HER BY COMMANDMENT OF THE CHURCH, are fallacious and ridiculous.
Keep on keeping on, Cjane. I'll be waiting!

Katherine said...

I love how husbands get dragged into long blog topic discourses. Mine is certainly no exception.

I do think it's terrible that I'm going away and won't have access to my computer until Monday. Cause by then it will be old news. Bummer.

P.S. What kind of crazy people call a pregnant woman fat?

Sundance Kid said...

Well, interesting that there seems to be three schools of thought so far here: those, like myself who agree with you; those who are either on the fence or just don't care; and those who disagree vehemently.

Well, I am of the mind that if you don't agree with someone you just don't respond - one needn't take sides or mouth off just to say something. Why people are rude to you is beyond me.

Looking forward to tomorrow's post!

NEC said...

You really should be grateful you have the opportunity to be who you want to be- many people in poorer countries don't have the luxury of staying home. That the choice even exists for you is amazing. That's what feminism is- choosing your choices.

Anonymous said...

I grew up a Mormon gal. Left the church as a fully consenting adult after learning the truth about church history and feeling unsettled about the way the church just changes it's mind regarding things like blood atonement, blacks in the priesthood, and the temple name a few.

I think most Mormons and non-Mormons alike would be very surprised if they conducted a thorough personal investigation into the LDS religion. Using non-LDS/neutral references, of course.

Anyway, I'm posting anon not because I'm ashamed of my decision to leave. But because the church always seems to find me everywhere I go. I've moved recently and have managed to avoid their unwanted visits/letters/phone calls. I'm not going to risk my peace of mind over a blog comment...I'm sure SOMEONE would "turn me in" and then they'd be on my trail again. I do, after all, live in a highly populated LDS state.

I've officially removed my name from church record - and I've paid the price from family who has shunned me. I do not believe Mormons are Christians. I believe the BOM to be completely false. I believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and all the so called "prophets" that have followed are equally guilty of such. False idolatry is a careful, my LDS friends...

Now. With all of that being said...I do see my husband as the spiritual leader of our home. I do "defer" to him with decisions...and I do consider marriage to be an act of service to each other.

God bless all of you. May the Lord work on your hearts so that you might find truth and the inevitable peace that follows after you learn that it's okay to be imperfect.

jenny said...

cjane, i hope that you researched dr. valerie hudson in your studies of feminism. she is a renowned political science professor in your own backyard and a wonderful example of an lds woman who can see the feminist perspective from both the secular and religious sides. she is amazing!

Chi-townRawlins said...

Julia, are you referring to Veronica's use of the word naysayer? Because I think she was referring to all of the posts (and there were MANY after the post had been out for several days) saying that Cjane was just going to ignore everyone and go on her merry way. I think that's what she's referring to. That they thought she wouldn't respond, and she is.

Ange of the North said...

Ha! I've been ruminating myself on the whole thing, and can't wait to see what you've come up with! Thanks for making me think about what I believe. It's always good to push, prod, and stretch a little!

[Morgan] said...

i hadn't read "the post" until just now, glad i did.
i liked it.
can't wait to hear what you've learned and concluded in your "seriousness".

Julie said...

You are such a sincere person and I really appreciate that. This is why you have so many readers! I didn't agree with most of what you said in "the post", but I respect your bravery and opinions.
P.S. I cannot BELIEVE someone was rude to you about your pregnant physique. Screw them!

Christa said...

Seriously...the more I read your blog, the more I do feel like I'm reading about a woman living in a time capsul, as stated previously by another poster. Interesting to me in the same way my soc/anth 101 course was. Same with your sister's blog...

Anonymous said...

CJane - I didn't comment on the original post, but in re-reading it I was struck by one idea. I am a teacher, and one thing I have learned in being a teacher and through my teacher education is that equal doesn't always mean "the same". You would treat a patient with a headache who has that headache as the result of tension in her neck from stress the same as you would treat a patient with a headache as a result of brain cancer would you? So why do we always expect equal to mean the same?

Men and women are different. The feminist side of mean believes that there is some equality to be found despite that - as in pay, opportunity, etc. But we shouldn't aim to try to create sameness between men and women in the same way that we shouldn't try to create sameness between two male siblings who like very different things. If one male child loves the guitar and the other hates practicing music, should both have to play? If one child loves baseball but the other finds it endlessly boring, should both have to sit through a game in the name of sameness? Of course not. So why do we force ourselves to think of children of opposite genders this way?

Equal doesn't mean the same. To mean, equality means giving each what he or she needs and deserves. My two cents!

Anonymous said...

I feel sad that those who disagree with you are so quick to blame it all on your religion. As a former LDS person, I feel that the LDS faith is exactly the opposite of what many people may think. I cannot think of a time when I felt "less of a person" because I was an LDS female. Quite the reverse actually. I felt revered, cherished and protected. Not that I needed protecting. I am glad you are looking more deeply into how you feel about yourself as a woman, yourself as an LDS woman, as a mother, a sister, a wife, a writer.

Shara said...

LOVE you, love your blog! Didn't comment on The Post, but read ALL the comments and gave it much thought. I consider myself a feminist and was dismayed to find out that some would think that means I want to be a man, act like a man and dress like a man! After all, I loved those pictures and posts about your pink skirt. Spent all summer looking (to no avail) for one just like it!

fMhLisa said...

regardless of what conclusions you have come to amidst your search, I'm always so happy to hear about anyone taking introspection so seriously.

Tara said...

Dear CJane,

Being vegan doesn't make someone infertile. (And I mean that in the nicest way possible.) But I'm glad you found the diet that works for you. Cheers.

thorney said...

Courtney, I went to bed last night thinking about this post and "The Post" and even had a discussion with one of my sisters about today over the phone.

I haven't come to a conclusion as to why I care that commenters feel so free to belittle you on a post of your own making, your own life, and your own beliefs. Coomenters not interested in discussion, but in making a bold statemet to implant a swipe at you and your faith. Discussion is healthy. Swiping snarky hurtful judgment is not.

Keep your chin up and know that the majority of your readers repect you and really do like you. We all don't always agree with you, but in my own case, I don't think it's necessary that I shadow all your thoughts in order to like, respect and enjoy you so much.

Blessings and hugs, Mari

Sarah said...

I read The Post. I did not comment, because I fully agreed. Now I may very well go back and comment...or at least read your readers comments. I am a happy, well rounded (not fat, tee hee), educated Mormon woman. I am NOT a feminist either. I look forward to your new post.

ed said...

Wow Christa, is that jealousy or just plain cruelty? (Maybe they are the same thing?)

TheOneTrueSue said...

See - this is why you are brave.

You know me - negative comments send me scurrying for the hills. I would've already deleted my blog by now. My husband would find me three days later, hiding in my closet eating peeps and muttering to myself.

Props to you for REVISITING (EGADS) a difficult topic that you know (no matter what you say about it) will plop you right smack in the middle of somebody's had-a-bad-day crosshairs.

And I know you revel in your feminimity (is that a word?) but - you live your blogging life with a serious pair of gonads, my dear.

(Too much? Probably too much. But still. True.)


Anonymous said...

"People wonder what we do for our women. I tell you what we do: We get out of their way and look with wonder at what they are accomplishing." ~Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley

c jane said...

Come on Tara, you know that is not what I meant. Right?

Love that President Hinckley quote.

kirelimel said...

I loved your post- it's going to help me with my two daughters. I have been up against the idea that being a girl is somehow shameful- that they can only be measured on the boy scale. My fifth grader likes the girl stuff at home but refuses to wear anything "too girly" to school for fear of being laughed at. I keep trying to push the "girl power" but the peer pressure can be overwhelming. Thanks for saying it all so well.

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